How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

Feminism at its core must be for the benefit of woman . I don’t subscribe to its position as a left wing political movement as I think the last few years have shown that Women’s rights are a cross party issue. I appreciate that there are some leftist women for who their second passion is the political left but that does not mean that feminism is stuck there. I absolutely agree that there must be room for conservative and other female voices in feminism.

I can’t see how views such as pro life or modesty clothing fit into feminism at all though because they are trying to restrict the rights of other women. I respect the right of a woman to say she would never have an abortion herself but I do not think it is a feminist statement for her to say that I can’t have one. I do however listen to women with a pro life position on other topics.

I think collectivist movements, like feminism, trade unions etc tend to be seen as more of a left wing thing as left wing politics is (at least on the surface) more about collectivism than it is individualism.

'But if you are a woman who has the wrong opinion on any number of topics, you are simply not invited into the conversation.'

Well sure. I'm not going to have a nice chat with a woman who is anti abortion for example just because she's female.

Also feminism is not one thing. There's not a set list of opinions. It also exists globally. It's not just Mumsnet.

Feminism works for all women. Not all women are feminists. Some will agree with some things other women want but not others. Etc.

Women speak for themselves only.

If I think someone posts a load of rubbish then I'm going to react accordingly. What else would i do?

I agree about the grammar stuff though. Really gets on my tits.

And there's no 'invitation'.

This is an open forum.

Thank you @SmokedDuck; you've put into words what I have always felt and couldn't articulate.
I disagree that positions such as pro-life or modesty clothing cannot have any relation to feminism. Many intelligent female proponents of such ideas can give heartfelt and insightful explanations of why they see these things as core to women's rights and dignity. Obviously, plenty of Western feminists would disagree. Every woman all over the world is coming at this from her own cultural perspective. Including secular British feminists. Our culture certainly isn't a utopia for women and girls.
If I were to answer "what is feminism"... Well, for much of my life (fairly or not) I've felt it's something that doesn't really see or hear me. But what it means to me now is women standing up for women's issues and dignity, and those of girls. The current state of affairs where the very definition of woman is disputed is what has highlighted to me how much is rooted in sex and common to women. What's important to me is to recognise and study the sex-based issues, which we might then agree or disagree on how to solve.

@30PercentRecycled

The assumption of some people that this board is exclusively white middle class English is I think also based in racism and classism.

Everybody here is so articulate

Therefore it is assumed they cannot be brown or working class or Glaswegian.

Racist snobs.

But who is making that assumption? Why are they making it/ vocalising it?

What are you assuming about the race and class of people making that assumption?

This can go round in circles forever.

There is no one feminist movement. But some women (of various colours and class) are working for large-scale law / mindset changes, which benefit all women (either all women in the UK, or all women who are affected by a particular act - e.g. FGM). Other women may just discuss things that affect women, to move discussion forward to bring about change. And all things in between.

[quote 30PercentRecycled]The whole issue seems intended to constantly guilt trip white women into apologising profusely and denigrating themselves at the altar of diversity and inclusion.

Agree. I think it is drives division by making people act weird in case they show ignorance of difference, which messes with our ability to debate.

I am reminded of the IT Crowd "Act Normal" scene

[/quote]

I agree. And love that clip.

I'm interested to know how a pro-life/anti-abortion approach to feminism works bourbonne? How does forced birth fit in with women's Lib and bodily autonomy?

Well if a pro life woman says that she wouldn't personally but will fight for the reproductive rights of other women then fine.

That wasn't what I meant when I said pro life though.

No forced birth, or forced abortion, can never be feminist stances.

'Many intelligent female proponents of such ideas can give heartfelt and insightful explanations of why they see these things as core to women's rights and dignity.'

How can anti abortion revert be core to women's rights and dignity when it results in

Thousands of deaths of women and girls all over the world every year due to unsafe abortion. Also lots of injuries.

Girls and women being killed because they have become pregnant through rape/ abuse and that is not tolerable as she is of no value any more

Women and girls being essentially tied to areas/ men due to having lots of children to look after as they have no other options

The fact that the vast majority of people who are anti abortion don't really care about the babies they care about oppressing women. Imprisoning women because they have miscarried for example.

Etc etc etc

I mean what the hell.

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog

I'm interested to know how a pro-life/anti-abortion approach to feminism works bourbonne? How does forced birth fit in with women's Lib and bodily autonomy?

I'm not setting myself up as an expert on this, but googling "pro life feminism" will bring up various explanations. I guess the crux of it would be the argument that it allows men to use women for sex and evade the consequences, that it takes away the expectation that motherhood should be supported and honoured, etc. Like I say, I know this is hardly a popular feminist position in the UK and there are plenty of arguments against, so I'm not here for a debate on this. At this point in my "journey" (awful word!) I'm really interested in just listening to the experiences and ideas of women from all over, because for too long I was left a bit cold by the mainstream talking points and assumptions of feminism here and now, and that alienated me from some important stuff.

The best way of reducing unwanted pregnancy is by making contraception widely available and free.

But agree let's not side track.

I think there is a big difference between supporting an individuals choice as a woman and being a feminist, which to me is about improving the lot of women as a group

To me prostitution fir example may be a woman's choice but one that perpetuates harm to women in general so wouldn't be a feminist position

For me smoked I think feminism is simply considering women to be of equal worth to men. I much preferred the old term "women's liberation"

I know some groups have tried to claim that they own feminism, especially on the left. They don't though. You can't own an idea.

If feminism belonged to the left then the left would support it. We have seen throughout the history of women in the Labour Party that women have had to fight for everything they have gained on the left. If the left owned feminism then left wing men would also support it and not drop it when it was inconvenient for them.
That doesn’t mean that feminism is not furthered and supported more by left wing women but I’m pleased to see it starting to be adopted as an independent movement which is where it belongs.
I never like to see women being told that they can’t be feminists because they are Conservative, Religious, SAHM, talked to the wrong person once etc. Feminism is a set of broad goals that sits apart from the other issues that divide women which is why feminists often don’t agree. Discussion and argument is inevitable because of the other issues we bring with us and not necessarily a bad thing.

I know some groups have tried to claim that they own feminism, especially on the left. They don't though. You can't own an idea

Feminism when associated so rigidly with any political ideology or leaning just becomes another 'ism. I don't feel comfortable with the term, and don't apply it to myself or use it as a badge of identification.

I agree, for me 'women's liberation' seems more appropriate. That way it includes women of all cultural/religious/political backgrounds; and is basically about centring and honouring the female experience, and the lives of women and girls around the world.

I'm interested to know how a pro-life/anti-abortion approach to feminism works bourbonne? How does forced birth fit in with women's Lib and bodily autonomy

i imagine it stems from the feeling that one is honouring motherhood and the power of the female in reproducing humanity, and in nurturing the family. That women's role is different but equal. That motherhood should be seen as a worthwhile occupation........and so on.

It probably also recognises the often very painful decision that lies behind abortion; that many women feel very conflicted about it; are often pushed into it by the 'father' or by circumstances in their life.

It most likely aligns with the feeling that young women often become prematurely involved in sex ( that can then lead to pregnancy), due to cultural pressures, and to ideas that women are/or should be just like men sexually. That many abortions arise through causal or promiscuous sexual encounters......which the pro-life person may well see as inherently damaging for women and girls; in that it does not honour the female/the feminine experience?

Something along those lines.....

Interesting response Justhadathought thanks - my experience of the pro-life lobby is that they are prescriptive and controlling about what women should or shouldn't do with their bodies and place the value of the life a woman is creating above the life of the woman. That they would rather see women who for whatever reason doesn't want to or can't have a child left holding the baby and are then happy to leave them to fend for themselves - certainly in the US the approach doesn't come with promises of any additional support for them should the woman be living in poverty or the child be severely disabled. I haven't come across arguments about honouring women. I'd be interested in any background reading to the contrary.

Rabbit if that interests you then you might also be interested in the views of women who find so-called modest dress to be liberating. They have an argument that the Western liberal attitude is actually not liberal but male pressure on women and girls to pornify themselves and dress sexily / provocatively. Women and girls who do not comply are bullied and told they are less worthy, which is why we have so much cosmetic surgery, fast fashion, eating disorders etc. It is not a crazy point of view.

The logic of those views is worth discussing in feminism and there are some good points but if the end point is ‘I’m going to protect you from your own bad decision so you are forbidden from having an abortion’ I don’t see how that belongs in feminism.

The problem with modest clothing is not an individual woman’s choice to feel comfortable it is in the judgement that religious men and women make of women who do not choose it. Women in short skirts with their hair and shoulders uncovered are not fair game for men who believe that women should be covered. Modesty clothing comes with strings attached for other women and therefore is not beneficial to woman as a whole (particularly with that awful judgemental name). The issue for feminism is why do women have to cover in order to be safe and comfortable from male harassment.

Interesting response Justhadathought thanks - my experience of the pro-life lobby is that they are prescriptive and controlling about what women should or shouldn't do with their bodies and place the value of the life a woman is creating above the life of the woman

When any idea becomes rigid and inflexible it becomes ideological; and as such the individual is sacrificed to the bigger idea.I don't think that pro-life ideas are inherently anti-woman, though -for the reasons and lines of thought I give above; and for which I have some sympathy.

It is probably better to call it 'pro-choice', rather than 'pro-abortion'. Is anyone 'pro-abortion' in the sense that it is a desirable practice? For most people it is not a happy choice, but a painful decision.

Out of interest are there less eating disorders in countries or communities where women are forced to cover? Genuine question if anyone knows the answer.

@30PercentRecycled

Rabbit if that interests you then you might also be interested in the views of women who find so-called modest dress to be liberating. They have an argument that the Western liberal attitude is actually not liberal but male pressure on women and girls to pornify themselves and dress sexily / provocatively. Women and girls who do not comply are bullied and told they are less worthy, which is why we have so much cosmetic surgery, fast fashion, eating disorders etc. It is not a crazy point of view.

There is something in that, but I don't think women should be told what they can and can't wear either way - outside the bounds of what is appropriate in certain settings. I think porn has a pernicious influence across society, influencing the objectification of women more generally and impacts all women negatively as a result. It's also increasingly violent and degrading. When it comes to abortion I'll always support women's right to choose. But I fear we are ranging well off OP's topic now.

The issue for feminism is why do women have to cover in order to be safe and comfortable from male harassment

I guess that depends on whether you view sexuality and the fact of sexed bodies and the natural drive towards procreation, as a choice, or as a biological imperative. Of course, as human beings we have the possibility for the civilisation of the instincts and the basic drives, but can we suppress them altogether?

The idea that males are more stimulated by visual 'clues' than females is something you might want to debate or question. Some people suggest that it is all socially constructed by patriarchy, and only if patriarchy was over-thrown then women would be free of male behaviours around sex and sexuality.

Of course, just covering up your obvious secondary sexual characteristics doesn't stop bad behaviour from males, or prevent rape or assault.........But if an attractive young woman goes out with her arse cheeks hanging out of her shorts ( as you often see these days) can anyone be really surprised if it attracts some attention?

Some young women do not seem fully cognisant of the fact they are reproducing 'pornified' looks. They just think they look pretty, and are following fashion trends.

Of course, just covering up your obvious secondary sexual characteristics doesn't stop bad behaviour from males, or prevent rape or assault.........But if an attractive young woman goes out with her arse cheeks hanging out of her shorts ( as you often see these days) can anyone be really surprised if it attracts some attention?

It is a look that I think it is particularly repulsive myself but I think men in a civilised society should be able to control their instinct to shout out or grab a woman under any circumstances. I also think the fashion magazines should stop promoting this kind of clothing. Unfortunately the alternative offered to arse revealing shorts is long skirts, long sleeves, tights hair coverings etc. Is there not a middle ground? The argument always goes from one extreme to another.

The original question was around inclusivity - we are accused of rejecting women with the wrong views. I think our little detour here shows that we are prepared to DISCUSS any views but you cannot ask feminism not to argue back if your views do not belong to mainstream feminism. This board is always great at asking challeging questions and having women explain their thinking very clearly. If people want or expect an environment where, to be inclusive, everyone just repeats virtue signaling mantras I think that is completely unreasonable.