Is there any such thing as gender identity?

[9toenails]

Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

Women are less believed about pain than men; witness women expected to care alone for newborn babies a few hours after major abdominal surgery on a couple of paracetamol, where a man in another ward would be being nursed in bed on morphine.

YY.

@NonnyMouse1337

I have not read the whole thread so I apologise if this has already been mentioned.

Gender identity is claimed to be an innate essence - something that doesn't change. It is apparently stronger than biology or genetics as its proponents claim a person's sex is 'assigned' at birth. In other words, they are trying to imply a person's sex isn't innate and real, but 'assigned' - an arbitrary construction; while this invisible gender identity is more real and innate and exists independently of a person's sexed body. Sort of like a soul if you will. The gender soul is more real than the material flesh of the body and its connection to the mind.

A person's gender identity is so real and so strong that some males claim they have always been a woman. Any attempts to examine or interrogate a person's self-confessed gender identity is portrayed as conversion therapy.

It is viewed as ethically wrong to question or attempt to change an innate aspect of a person. Like sexual orientation. Fair enough.

Sexual orientation is considered to be innate although there is still debate over how this actually comes to be and whether some people tend to be more flexible than others in their sexual attraction. (I don't mean bisexuals - I'm referring to people who were adamant they were straight/gay and then met someone who changed their mind)
Nevertheless it is fairly obvious to the vast majority of people that you cannot change a person's sexual orientation. They can suppress it or pretend to be something they are not or ignore it, but eventually, one way or another, there is no denying something so intrinsically part of a person's psyche.

Can we ever forget something that is an intrinsic part of us?

Dementia is a horrible condition and the nature of the issues affecting the brain mean people can forget all sorts of things as it progresses - from spouses and children to basic activities like cooking and grooming oneself properly. More recent memories and skills seem to be more likely to be lost first.

Has anyone with dementia forgotten their sexual orientation?
I haven't really come across anything like that, but I'm happy to hear from others who are more knowledgeable in this area. As far as I know, a straight person doesn't forget they are heterosexual. They might forget social rules and manners and inhibitions, but will a man start hitting on another man because his dementia causes him to forget he's attracted to women?
Gay men and lesbian women also don't seem to forget their sexual orientation. Dementia might cause them to forget recent history like homosexuality is no longer criminalised or they might forget that they have 'come out' to family and friends. They may feel distressed and worried about what might happen and need reminding that people already know. But as far as I'm aware, people don't seem to forget their sexual orientation, which makes sense if we consider it to be a fairly innate and intrinsic part of a person's psyche.

Has anyone with dementia forgotten their gender identity?

Yes.

Although more studies are needed, there is evidence that trans people with dementia do seem to forget their 'innate' gender identity.

www.academia.edu/40621556/Forgotten_lives_Trans_older_adults_living_with_dementia_at_the_intersection_of_cisgenderism_ableism_cogniticism_and_ageism_Journal_Sexualities_2019_

"trans older adults with dementia may forget they transitioned and reidentify with their sex/gender assigned at birth or may experience ‘gender confusion.’ This raises crucial questions, for example regarding practices related to pronouns, care to the body (shaving, hair, clothes, etc.), social gendered interactions, health care (continuing or not hormonal therapy) and so on."

How can you be confused about something that you have always been? How can you forget something that you are?

Trans people have expressed that their most prevalent ageing-related fears are to live with dementia, to forget their chosen gender identity and be mistreated by healthcare professionals.

I can easily imagine there are universal fears when it comes to living with dementia - forgetting loved ones and memories, losing independence and agency, being mistreated by care staff etc.

Do people express fear at forgetting their sexuality? I don't think it's something that occurs to most people when they think about dementia.

I find it very odd that there is so much propaganda to insist that the concept of gender identity is an innate and intrinsic part of a person's psyche - that people are living their life authentically by transitioning, and yet if a person is merely being who they really are, why would they express distress about it?

Sexual orientation and gender identity are frequently conflated and combined. In that case we should see fairly similar levels of people forgetting their sexual orientation along with those people who forget their gender identity. Yet this is not the case. Why? I'll leave that up to the reader.

Really interesting post. Dementia is really a total bastard of a disease.

Just wondered if Shizuku can clear something up based on my previous post - is it sex or gender identity that's assigned at birth? Or are the two things the same?

You've failed to answer any question I've put to you so far, as far as I can see - so it's possibly asking a bit much of you to simply say "it is sex that's assigned at birth" or "it's gender identity that's assigned at birth", let alone to expand on what you think these things are.

But we are constantly told one of these is assigned at birth, and that this is something very very important but also changeable, unless it's not changeable, and possibly less important than how someone feels. You can see why people get so muddled!

"Just wondered if Shizuku can clear something up based on my previous post - is it sex or gender identity that's assigned at birth? Or are the two things the same?"

"Assigned at birth" is just the name we use for the announcement that the midwife typically makes about what sex you appear to be based on your genital configuration. they are usually right. Occasionally, through no fault of their own, they are wrong.

Your gender identity is innate, but you won't typically become aware of it until you are about 2.

"Whereas I'm pretty sure everyone on FWR accepts that gender dysphoria exists"

How could it exist if gender identity doesn't exist?

@NonnyMouse1337

I have not read the whole thread so I apologise if this has already been mentioned.

Gender identity is claimed to be an innate essence - something that doesn't change. It is apparently stronger than biology or genetics as its proponents claim a person's sex is 'assigned' at birth. In other words, they are trying to imply a person's sex isn't innate and real, but 'assigned' - an arbitrary construction; while this invisible gender identity is more real and innate and exists independently of a person's sexed body. Sort of like a soul if you will. The gender soul is more real than the material flesh of the body and its connection to the mind.

A person's gender identity is so real and so strong that some males claim they have always been a woman. Any attempts to examine or interrogate a person's self-confessed gender identity is portrayed as conversion therapy.

It is viewed as ethically wrong to question or attempt to change an innate aspect of a person. Like sexual orientation. Fair enough.

Sexual orientation is considered to be innate although there is still debate over how this actually comes to be and whether some people tend to be more flexible than others in their sexual attraction. (I don't mean bisexuals - I'm referring to people who were adamant they were straight/gay and then met someone who changed their mind)
Nevertheless it is fairly obvious to the vast majority of people that you cannot change a person's sexual orientation. They can suppress it or pretend to be something they are not or ignore it, but eventually, one way or another, there is no denying something so intrinsically part of a person's psyche.

Can we ever forget something that is an intrinsic part of us?

Dementia is a horrible condition and the nature of the issues affecting the brain mean people can forget all sorts of things as it progresses - from spouses and children to basic activities like cooking and grooming oneself properly. More recent memories and skills seem to be more likely to be lost first.

Has anyone with dementia forgotten their sexual orientation?
I haven't really come across anything like that, but I'm happy to hear from others who are more knowledgeable in this area. As far as I know, a straight person doesn't forget they are heterosexual. They might forget social rules and manners and inhibitions, but will a man start hitting on another man because his dementia causes him to forget he's attracted to women?
Gay men and lesbian women also don't seem to forget their sexual orientation. Dementia might cause them to forget recent history like homosexuality is no longer criminalised or they might forget that they have 'come out' to family and friends. They may feel distressed and worried about what might happen and need reminding that people already know. But as far as I'm aware, people don't seem to forget their sexual orientation, which makes sense if we consider it to be a fairly innate and intrinsic part of a person's psyche.

Has anyone with dementia forgotten their gender identity?

Yes.

Although more studies are needed, there is evidence that trans people with dementia do seem to forget their 'innate' gender identity.

www.academia.edu/40621556/Forgotten_lives_Trans_older_adults_living_with_dementia_at_the_intersection_of_cisgenderism_ableism_cogniticism_and_ageism_Journal_Sexualities_2019_

"trans older adults with dementia may forget they transitioned and reidentify with their sex/gender assigned at birth or may experience ‘gender confusion.’ This raises crucial questions, for example regarding practices related to pronouns, care to the body (shaving, hair, clothes, etc.), social gendered interactions, health care (continuing or not hormonal therapy) and so on."

How can you be confused about something that you have always been? How can you forget something that you are?

Trans people have expressed that their most prevalent ageing-related fears are to live with dementia, to forget their chosen gender identity and be mistreated by healthcare professionals.

I can easily imagine there are universal fears when it comes to living with dementia - forgetting loved ones and memories, losing independence and agency, being mistreated by care staff etc.

Do people express fear at forgetting their sexuality? I don't think it's something that occurs to most people when they think about dementia.

I find it very odd that there is so much propaganda to insist that the concept of gender identity is an innate and intrinsic part of a person's psyche - that people are living their life authentically by transitioning, and yet if a person is merely being who they really are, why would they express distress about it?

Sexual orientation and gender identity are frequently conflated and combined. In that case we should see fairly similar levels of people forgetting their sexual orientation along with those people who forget their gender identity. Yet this is not the case. Why? I'll leave that up to the reader.

"According to anecdotal case studies recounted by healthcare professionals in the limited literature"

What was that someone said about my sources being too vague?

@Shizuku
I've just read a fascinating paper on the biological markers of gender identity.
There are a number of issues with it, in that it didn't control for sexual orientation or take any account of hormone treatment the TM and TW were taking, which tbh are pretty massive issues.
But the methodology for the actual investigation is pretty spot on

And yes it does posit a biological markers for gender identity

Except it's very clear that it's found that TransWoman are TransWoman, TransMen are TransMen, Woman are Woman and Men are Men

Maybe you could read it and let me know your thoughts
www.researchgate.net/publication/337026445_Predictive_Pattern_Classification_Can_Distinguish_Gender_Identity_Subtypes_from_Behavior_and_Brain_Imaging

How could it exist if gender identity doesn't exist?

Easily. You can feel that you are the wrong sex - what you can't really feel is that you are really the other sex. How would that even be possible? I might feel that I am not being comfortable as a woman, but this doesn't make me a man.

Your gender identity is innate, but you won't typically become aware of it until you are about 2.

So how can dementia patients forget their gender identity if it is innate?

@WeeBisom

About the pain point, pain has involuntary behaviours associated with it. Pain related behaviours over a period of time are proof that a person is feeling pain. But are there “gender identity” behaviours ? Well, to say that there are behaviours correlated necessarily with being a woman seems sexist.

"But are there “gender identity” behaviours ?"

Yes - someone who was assigned male at birth behaving as if they feel their gender identity is female. Those behaviours are pretty extensively discussed on here and basically consist of everything trans women typically do in order to deal with their female gender identity.

Those behaviours are pretty extensively discussed on here and basically consist of everything trans women typically do in order to deal with their female gender identity.
But it doesn't follow that "things trans women do" are "gender identity behaviours".

So how can dementia patients forget their gender identity if it is innate?

This is an excellent point. My grandma has dementia, but I'm pretty sure she knows what sex she is.

@334bu

*Your gender identity is innate, but you won't typically become aware of it until you are about 2.*

So how can dementia patients forget their gender identity if it is innate?

It's not cleat if that ever happens. The paper presented says:

"According to anecdotal case studies recounted by healthcare professionals in the limited literature"

Is their gender identity changing? Are they just forgetting what they did to deal with it? Are they reverting back to a distant past in which they were in complete denial - who knows?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So how can dementia patients forget their gender identity if it is innate?

This is an excellent point. My grandma has dementia, but I'm pretty sure she knows what sex she is.

I'm sorry to hear about your relative, having watched dementia first hand.

There typically comes a time in dementia when the patient doesn't really know anything at all.

Gender identity is developmental. People are born with and into factors that predispose them to develop a certain gender identity.

You can feel that you are the wrong sex - what you can't really feel is that you are really the other sex.

Some do feel the dysphoria more strongly than a clear cross-sex identity. But when supported to make social and medical transitions they can develop into the new sex and identity and become happier more functional people. Precipitated by being accepted into the social role and developing the physical characteristics of their transitioned sex. If you look like that sex, have physical characteristics of that sex, treated day to day as that sex....well if it walks like a duck...

everything trans women typically do in order to deal with their female gender identity.

@Shizuku
Except the paper I just linked says that a transwomans gender identity is that of a transwoman
Not a female gender identity

I'll link it again in case you missed my post
www.researchgate.net/publication/337026445_Predictive_Pattern_Classification_Can_Distinguish_Gender_Identity_Subtypes_from_Behavior_and_Brain_Imaging

I understand that some people might find transitioning an effective way to cope with gender dysphoria but that doesn't mean that gender identity necessarily exists. It feels real to those people but not everyone has a gender identity.

There typically comes a time in dementia when the patient doesn't really know anything at all.

Yes, but at the moment, she knows what sex she is, even though she is confused about other things.

[quote continuallyconflating]@Shizuku
I've just read a fascinating paper on the biological markers of gender identity.
There are a number of issues with it, in that it didn't control for sexual orientation or take any account of hormone treatment the TM and TW were taking, which tbh are pretty massive issues.
But the methodology for the actual investigation is pretty spot on

And yes it does posit a biological markers for gender identity

Except it's very clear that it's found that TransWoman are TransWoman, TransMen are TransMen, Woman are Woman and Men are Men

Maybe you could read it and let me know your thoughts
www.researchgate.net/publication/337026445_Predictive_Pattern_Classification_Can_Distinguish_Gender_Identity_Subtypes_from_Behavior_and_Brain_Imaging[/quote]
I think this is going to upset some members - a brain study that can literally see the apparently non existent thing we call gender identity, and which also gives a scientific basis for non-binary identities to exist.

It's an interesting study - I welcome it. Although your characterisation is of "TransWoman are TransWoman, TransMen are TransMen, Woman are Woman and Men are Men" is a little off I'm afraid. What the study shows is that trans brains are not exactly the same as cis brains, which we already knew, but it gives us more detail and some hints about what parts of the brain are involved in gender identity.

Of course, if you have a deep, religion-style belief system that states that gender identity is not real (like some religious people think dinosaurs never existed), then this study may be uncomfortable reading.

@Gerla

I understand that some people might find transitioning an effective way to cope with gender dysphoria but that doesn't mean that gender identity necessarily exists. It feels real to those people but not everyone has a gender identity.

Indeed, some people are "agender". But I'm sure you wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that the only things which exist are the ones you have experienced yourself.

Can I be "agender" if I don't have a gender identity and only know I am female sex because I have a female body?

But I'm sure you wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that the only things which exist are the ones you have experienced yourself.

So you are saying that some people have gender identity and some people don't? So why do we have to only take into account the people who do?

@Anovaneway

Gender identity is developmental. People are born with and into factors that predispose them to develop a certain gender identity.

You can feel that you are the wrong sex - what you can't really feel is that you are really the other sex.

Some do feel the dysphoria more strongly than a clear cross-sex identity. But when supported to make social and medical transitions they can develop into the new sex and identity and become happier more functional people. Precipitated by being accepted into the social role and developing the physical characteristics of their transitioned sex. If you look like that sex, have physical characteristics of that sex, treated day to day as that sex....well if it walks like a duck...

"You can feel that you are the wrong sex - what you can't really feel is that you are really the other sex."

Know one knows what it feels like to be someone else. I'm afraid you have mistaken gender identity for an experience of someone else's experience rather than, for want of a better word, an instinct that facilitates social cohesion in social species like humans.

In other words, we can't know what gender someone has inside their head (or whether or not they have it) so let's just go back to sex rather than gender for legislation etc?

Oh for goodness sake Shiz. You really must start reading those papers before you post them.

Spoiler alert: it doesn't prove what Shiz says it proves.

Know one knows what it feels like to be someone else.

Exactly! You've got it. So we can't base our society, our rules and regulations around it. Sex, on the other hand, is easily recognisable.