Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

@Gerla

But I'm sure you wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that the only things which exist are the ones you have experienced yourself.

So you are saying that some people have gender identity and some people don't? So why do we have to only take into account the people who do?

You don't - trans people are completely accepting of agender people. Non binary is a thing, and agender sits within that.

Take into account all gender identities, including agender people - I do - it's all good.

@Gerla

Know one knows what it feels like to be someone else.

Exactly! You've got it. So we can't base our society, our rules and regulations around it. Sex, on the other hand, is easily recognisable.

I'm afraid you missed the next sentence.

Know one knows what it feels like to be someone else

Yes. That's why gender identity ideology is so implausible, as biological males cannot know that they feel like a biological female would feel. They can only know that they don't feel like they think a male should feel. Which is probably coloured by a stereotypical view of male and female sex roles. We could call it "gender"!

@Shizuku

‘Agender’ I’ve heard it all now 🙄

But I'm sure you wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that the only things which exist are the ones you have experienced yourself.

Of course not. Some people claim to have experienced alien abduction. It’s all good. But I shouldn’t be obligated to partake in their delusion if I don’t believe in it myself.

I'm afraid you missed the next sentence.

I didn't miss it. I just couldn't get it to make a whole lot of sense.

Shiz, I could give you a whole lot of stuff from any religion that could be uncomfortable reading - if you read it and chose to invest in it and believe it instead of have your own beliefs based on your own perceptions and choices and information.

I wouldn't expect to convert you.

I respect that you believe this. I'm never going to. Can we please have solutions that allow for mutual tolerance? Instead of the continual, sinner, repent, see the light, here's more pamphlets, there is no tolerance for anyone who does not believe what I do?

Although your characterisation of "TransWoman are TransWoman, TransMen are TransMen, Woman are Woman and Men are Men" is a little off I'm afraid. What the study shows is that trans brains are not exactly the same as cis brains, which we already knew, but it gives us more detail and some hints about what parts of the brain are involved in gender identity.

So you didn't actually read it then?
Or you didn't understand what it was saying perhaps?

corroborating the existence of intermediate gender phenotypes for Tm and Tw which cannot be grouped together with men and women with respect to brain anatomy and functional connectivity

How is this not saying that TWATW and TMATM?

And as regards the lack of screening for hormone treatment which numerous other studies have shown effects brain structure

The most common denominator across all these studies investigating brain anatomy is that Tm and Tw represent an intermediate phenotype which seems to shift further towards the desired gender throughout the course of cross-sex hormone therapy

Of course, if you have a deep, religion-style belief system that states that Transwoman are woman, then this study may be uncomfortable reading.
Perhaps that's why TRA's never use it...

Hells bells are we back to the ‘lady brain’ BS? You know, the myth that has just been debunked by the biggest ever study concerning the structural ‘differences’ between female and male brains?

If you’re talking about the thought processes, it’s not secret that these change according to your life experience - so if you dress a certain way, and act a certain way, your brain will respond. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy but proves nothing in terms of the elusive ‘gender identity’.

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

www.researchgate.net/publication/331407425_Neurosexism_the_myth_that_men_and_women_have_different_brains

@continuallyconflating

Although your characterisation of "TransWoman are TransWoman, TransMen are TransMen, Woman are Woman and Men are Men" is a little off I'm afraid. What the study shows is that trans brains are not exactly the same as cis brains, which we already knew, but it gives us more detail and some hints about what parts of the brain are involved in gender identity.

So you didn't actually read it then?
Or you didn't understand what it was saying perhaps?

corroborating the existence of intermediate gender phenotypes for Tm and Tw which cannot be grouped together with men and women with respect to brain anatomy and functional connectivity

How is this not saying that TWATW and TMATM?

And as regards the lack of screening for hormone treatment which numerous other studies have shown effects brain structure

The most common denominator across all these studies investigating brain anatomy is that Tm and Tw represent an intermediate phenotype which seems to shift further towards the desired gender throughout the course of cross-sex hormone therapy

Of course, if you have a deep, religion-style belief system that states that Transwoman are woman, then this study may be uncomfortable reading.
Perhaps that's why TRA's never use it...

"How is this not saying that TWATW and TMATM?"

We already know that trans brains are not the same as cis brains - that's not new information. The claim isn't that trans women are women because their brain scans are identical to cis women's, the observation is that trans women have a female gender identity and the claim (which you won't agree with of course) is that gender identity is more important than things like gonads when assigning a sex to someone.

Did anyone hear Noam Chomsky on PM on Radio 4? He said: "Noam Chomsky

There is something that’s been happening amongst sectors of the left, whatever that means, which are driving views on identity politics to extremes that make no sense whatsoever". Of course Evan Davis didn't pick up on it or explore it any further - it was in the context of discussing anti-mask sentiment in the US - but I wish he had.

@Shizuku

We already know that trans brains are not the same as cis brains - that's not new information.

Can you explain how they are different? And not in a general ‘life experience’ sense, like how taxi drivers actually grow brain material to expand their memory and navigation etc.

If it’s innate from birth, that difference must be there from birth, and not cultivated over time by life experience.

The articles I posted are the most up to date studies which show zero meaningful differences between the brains of men and women.

www.researchgate.net/publication/337026445_Predictive_Pattern_Classification_Can_Distinguish_Gender_Identity_Subtypes_from_Behavior_and_Brain_Imaging

I think this is going to upset some members - a brain study that can literally see the apparently non existent thing we call gender identity, and which also gives a scientific basis for non-binary identities to exist.

It's an interesting study - I welcome it. Although your characterisation is of "TransWoman are TransWoman, TransMen are TransMen, Woman are Woman and Men are Men" is a little off I'm afraid. What the study shows is that trans brains are not exactly the same as cis brains, which we already knew, but it gives us more detail and some hints about what parts of the brain are involved in gender identity.

This is a very interesting paper, but not for the reasons that Shizuku thinks it is.

This study uses a functional neuroimaging method called resting state connectivity. Basically a research subject lies in an MRI scanner and thinks of nothing in particular while the scanner measures a marker for the activity of neurons (nerve cells) all over the brain. Then a complex analysis method is used to identify which areas of the brain are working in harmony with each other - it's a way of seeing which circuits of brain regions are working together in a "joined-up" way. Different circuits may be active at rest in different individuals.

Having collected brain imaging data the study then used a machine-learning algorithm to see if the patterns of connectivity could be used to predict whether an individual was a man, woman, transman or transwoman.

There are some strengths to this study. For example, none of the trans individuals were on cross-sex hormones, which removes one potential confound. However there were also limitations - I can't see any mention of screening for ASD, for example.

The study found that the algorithm could predict the "gender identity" of an individual better than a standardised questionnaire on gendered behaviour. But the prediction rates, though higher than chance (i.e. better than just guessing), still weren't very high. The study could pick a man with 52% accuracy, a woman with 63% accuracy, a transman with 49% accuracy, and a transwoman with 52% accuracy.

The really interesting findings come when we look at the errors that the algorithm made. In other words, when the algorithm mis-classified an individual, what error was made most commonly. Transwomen were mis-classified as men at a rate of 29%, but were mis-classified as women or transmen at rates of only 9% and 10% respectively.

The study findings are consistent with 2 key conclusions.

1. Transmen and transwomen formed disticnt categories which could be separated from men and women - so the study provided no evidence in support of the position that TWAW and TMAM.

1. The patterns of brain activity of a transwoman were much more likely to be mistaken for a man than a woman - so the study did provide some evidence in support of the position that TWAM.

@Shizuku

"Just wondered if Shizuku can clear something up based on my previous post - is it sex or gender identity that's assigned at birth? Or are the two things the same?"

"Assigned at birth" is just the name we use for the announcement that the midwife typically makes about what sex you appear to be based on your genital configuration. they are usually right. Occasionally, through no fault of their own, they are wrong.

Your gender identity is innate, but you won't typically become aware of it until you are about 2.

So Mermaids are wrong to say that a gender identity is given at birth.

I thought it didn't make any sense!

As I’ve said before, I think it has reached the point where ‘gender identity’ has been made so incomprehensible, it can mean whatever a person chooses it to mean. So many different labels and spin offs - non binary, a-gender, gender euphoric, blah di blah - have been ‘invented’ so there will always be a mechanism for rebuttal - ‘Um yes well I guess not everyone has a gender but that’s called... um... a-genderism.’ Essentially the aim seems to be to make it so kafkaesque that you can bluff your way through anything, and accuse the other person of ‘not getting’ it. It’s like once it had been exposed as stereotype BS, they decided not to stick with one definition again, lest that get ripped to shreds by logic as well.

It's not cleat if that ever happens. The paper presented says:

"According to anecdotal case studies recounted by healthcare professionals in the limited literature"

Is their gender identity changing? Are they just forgetting what they did to deal with it? Are they reverting back to a distant past in which they were in complete denial - who knows?

----------

How can one's gender identity change? If it's innate, seems a bit odd that it would be impacted in a way that sexual orientation isn't.

The paper says,
While there is empirical data documenting the impacts of dementia on memory or language, no empirical studies have analyzed the intersections of dementia and gender identity despite anecdotal evidence suggesting that dementia can elicit changes in gender identity and expression

So the anecdotal evidence (or should we call it lived experience?) indicates that dementia does affect gender identity. It's just that no empirical study has been undertaken so far to understand the how and why.

Another fascinating insight from the paper -
"among the growing literature on LGBTQ ageing, publications specifically addressing dementia are rare. The existing work is composed of gray and academic literature (e.g. McGovern, 2014; Westwood and Price, 2016) that discusses the specific hurdles, challenges, forms of violence and discrimination faced by LGBTQ people with dementia. Despite the inclusion of trans people in the acronym LGBTQ, most of the literature reproduces an erasure of trans specific realities (Namaste, 2000) through a merging of trans realities with sexual minority experiences. Trans specific needs and problems are more properly addressed in the limited but growing body of research dealing directly with trans and ageing"

It's good to see an acknowledgement that the T is very different from the LGB and needs its own separate body of research.

I would say the reason why there's little literature on the LGB experience with dementia is because like heterosexuals, they don't forget their innate sexual orientation. Given the larger numbers of gay men and lesbian women, if this was an actual phenomenon then academics would be researching it. There are obvious issues with discrimination and challenges that come from being a sexual minority, but it's strange that two innate characteristics can be affected so differently by the same condition.

gender identity is more important than things like gonads when assigning a sex to someone.

I remember those halcyon days when ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE IS CONFUSING SEX WITH GENDER.
It must be, ooh, a year ago now, at least.

OF COURSE NO-ONE IS SAYING TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN will be the last reverse ferret and then we will have mutual respect and peace.

@Awiltu

There are some strengths to this study. For example, none of the trans individuals were on cross-sex hormones,

I'm not sure this is right. In the section Materials and Methods: Participants, it says:
All trans gender participants declared their intention of undergoing cross-sex hormone therapy
So I initially thought this

But in the Discussion section it says:
One thing that was not taken into account in our analyses was the influence of hormonal treatment and the menstrual cycle on the observed differences in resting-state networks
Which it follows up with some handwaving about why this doesn't matter (yeah right)

But yes, if the basic premise, statistical analysis and methodology can be accepted, which as @Wondermule rightly points out is contentious, the study is pretty unequivocal that Trans Woman are not Woman

Know one knows what it feels like to be someone else. I'm afraid you have mistaken gender identity for an experience of someone else's experience rather than, for want of a better word, an instinct that facilitates social cohesion in social species like humans.

But you can have a sense of what sex you are. Some people develop a cross-sex sense of what sex they are. I’m not sure who you’re replying to there.

Some people develop a cross-sex sense of what sex they are.

Um, that would not be a sense of what sex they are then, would it?

the claim (which you won't agree with of course) is that gender identity is more important than things like gonads when assigning a sex to someone.

I don't agree with it but I would like to know WHY you think gender identity which you have said that not everyone has and which cannot be measured is more important than actually biological differences which can be clearly identified.

@continuallyconflating, I could be wrong, but I understood the comments in the Discussion to be the authors explaining why results in other studies might have differed and to highlight the importance of considering hormonal influences. The statement in Methods did seem to indicate that none of the study participants were taking cross-sex hormones, though I suppose that "declared their intention of undergoing cross-sex hormone therapy in the future" could be polite code for "we have no idea if our participants were taking hormones bought off the internet".

The methodology of resting state connectivity analyses is complex, and not very transparent - you're a long way from the original fMRI signal by the time you see a statistical result. Adding the machine-learning algorithm element just increases the complexity. The analysis methodology looks OK (and the geek in me thinks it's pretty neat to combine the two analysis techniques), but I think not explicitly controlling for or factoring in neurodiversity is a big weakness. Neural connectivitiy patterns are known to be atypical in ASD, - given the recognised association between ASD and trans identity, how do we know that the connectivity patterns in the trans groups don't reflect high numbers of participants with ASD?

You know else who has has strong issues around the irrelevance of gender identity and importance of biological sex?

Actuaries

Those insurance laddies won't put up with this nonsense if there's any chance of it affecting profit
They made damn sure they carved out an exception for themselves under the GRA

Other exceptions: These are fairly limited in scope and include... provision of annuities, life assurance policies, accident insurance policies or similar matter which involves the assessment of risk...

But you can have a sense of what sex you are. Some people develop a cross-sex sense of what sex they are

That’s so silly. I don’t have a sense of what sex I am. I have knowledge of what sex I am. I have knowledge of the extent to which I conform to the stereotypes associated with my sex, and that I have a body map which incorporates my sexed organs.

It’s impossible for a trans person’s gender identity to be based on knowledge of their sex, so we can skip over that. TRAs keep insisting it’s nothing to do with stereotypes so let’s pretend that’s true.

It seems that the body map piece is the most related to “gender identity” in that some dissociated or traumatised people start disconnecting from the signals sent by their actual body and imagining themselves as the opposite sex, or as sexualised cartoon animals (or split the difference with an anime identity), or whatever. I don’t think it’s useful to reduce this interesting and complex issue to “gender identity” as if that’s an explanation of any sort.

I think it’s probably the case that fixation of gender stereotypes or aversion to them feed in to the body-map stuff.

I’d love to see a brain imaging study that compares trans people to furries. I don’t think it will ever be done but I’m confident the algorithms would lump both groups together; the erotic target is different but it seems very likely to be a slightly different manifestation of the same phenomenon.

TRAs are welcome to dismiss this theory but all the observable evidence we have about “gender identity” suggests it’s not a fixed thing in individuals, it does change over time, it’s quite clearly influenced by cultural factors, it’s influenced by trauma and by neurological and mental health conditions, and positing gender identity as a singular ineffable cause of anything rather than as a multi-causal manifestation of mental and cultural processes is fucking stupid.

@Awiltu Hating to presume but I think the bit your referring to in the Discussion about cross-sex hormones and other studies is a bit later on than the bit I posted?
It's certainly very muddled around this issue
I had to go through it a few times to try and understand if the participants were in treatment and the bit I quoted, and this following bit, which is at the end of the same paragraph, sort of convinced me they were.

Furthermore, we acknowledge that future studies should gather additional information regarding recognition of gender incongruence, sexual orientation of subjects as well as beginning (start?) and exact nature of treatment
(my italics)

And yes, yes about ASD