Why AREN’T men more afraid?

[Lessthanaballpark]

In all the discussion around Sarah Everard and women’s safety, it keeps coming up that men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence ( the perps being men obvs)

Yet, why then aren’t men more afraid? I can’t remember seeing much in the news about male on male violence.

Is that because it’s easier to feel sympathy for women?

And why aren’t men afraid?

Is it because they think they have a fighting chance against any perps?

Is it because they are not targeted for being men?

Is it because the violence towards women is more sexual?

I’d genuinely like to know what everyone thinks, because it seems to me that they should be more scared than they are.

@JurgenKloppsCat

It's a great question OP. Thank you for posting it. It's been fascinating to read responses from male contributors. And just as eye opening to see the dismissive attitude of some women (NAWALT) on this of all boards.

Magnificentmug12 - 'I think it’s because of sexual assault. I’d rather be beaten up like a bloke than be raped then beaten up too.'

Really? On a discussion where people have described life-threatening and life -changing injuries? Do you have a cartoon image in your head of some Beano-esque black eyes being treated with a bit of steak and an elastoplast? Imagine if I had said I'd rather be raped than stabbed and left to bleed to death in a gutter. Oh, the outrage that would have ensued...

You seem to have missed she said raped then beaten up. She wasn't saying being beaten up was in any way ok, but that being raped as well makes it worse.

And perhaps, as someone mentioned, although more men get attacked, they are less likely to be subjected to verbal abuse or other aggression by strangers, so they are less wary.

I completely relate to the way you have your risk taking policed here. I am not particularly fearful of random male violence, but have had my judgement constantly questioned over this in ways that I find infantilising. It is as if I can't be trusted to to assess the risks and make my own decisions.
In my twenties I was repeatedly discouraged, or downright forbidden, from walking home alone at night - something my male friends all did and never had questioned.
The risk that I was taking relative to them was never quantified, but it was taken for granted that it is an acceptable risk for men, but not me, to take.
This is not in any way to undermine the very justified fears of other women - but I think that society's fetishisation of male violence against women has some deeply paternalistic elements.

@JurgenKloppsCat

I think you misunderstood the point of the poster - they said they would rather be beaten up than raped then beaten up. Not sure how anyone could take issue with that. A man would surely rather be beaten up than raped then beaten up? It's just less likely he would be raped in addition to beaten up. It would be equally awful, but is less likely.

I think EdwardTeach has part of it ("It's simple. We take more risks and over-estimate our abilities.").

But I think the rational part is that we feel we can avoid trouble more easily. It's a certain kind of man who goes out looking to fight men. Avoid those types/areas/pubs, and you should be fine. And if not, what those types are after is a victory: a minor beating or some grovelling satisfies that.

Women face that same risk, plus a whole darker one that leads to rape and/or murder, that can't be placated in the same way, and can come from anywhere.

The worst case is much worse, and the aggressor is harder to predict. That is much more frightening I think.

This is not in any way to undermine the very justified fears of other women - but I think that society's fetishisation of male violence against women has some deeply paternalistic elements.
I agree. After a series of attacks on women, my local council gave women a voucher for a discount on taxi fares. The message was: you shouldn't be out on your own but we've done our bit. Nothing concrete was actually done to make women safer in their own neighbourhoods.

And proper isolated countryside doesn’t bother me at all, there’s no-one there!!!

Interesting - I grew up on a farm, so going home at night always had to be thought about beforehand- organising lifts or staying over with a friend who lived in town. We were told taxis didn't come out to us, so that was never considered an option (I expect they probably would have, though possibly with a premium for leaving town.) We were technically walking distance from town, but the main road outside our track had steep banks, no verge, and you would probably get run over, because there's nowhere to go - it would be bloody stupid to do it, even in full daylight. There were routes on footpaths through the woods, but in the dark, you can't see well, and the biggest risk we were warned of was poachers - if they caught your eyes in the light, they might shoot at you, thinking you were an animal. I was warned about that, but less so about walking in well-lit places, not walking alone at night, because it just wasn't relevant out of town. The result was that when I moved to a town (for uni,) I didn't think anything much of walking the last bit of the route home alone or anything. We were usually in a group at the start anyway. I only remember one guy offering to walk me home, and I thought he was making a fuss, but agreed, as I was very open to him taking advantage of me (he never did.) So yes, I was brought up that my biggest risk at being out alone at night was poachers.

I think toxic masculinity is to blame. Men are too scared to admit they are scared of other men because they think it makes me look like a wuss

@EBearhug

And proper isolated countryside doesn’t bother me at all, there’s no-one there!!!

Interesting - I grew up on a farm, so going home at night always had to be thought about beforehand- organising lifts or staying over with a friend who lived in town. We were told taxis didn't come out to us, so that was never considered an option (I expect they probably would have, though possibly with a premium for leaving town.) We were technically walking distance from town, but the main road outside our track had steep banks, no verge, and you would probably get run over, because there's nowhere to go - it would be bloody stupid to do it, even in full daylight. There were routes on footpaths through the woods, but in the dark, you can't see well, and the biggest risk we were warned of was poachers - if they caught your eyes in the light, they might shoot at you, thinking you were an animal. I was warned about that, but less so about walking in well-lit places, not walking alone at night, because it just wasn't relevant out of town. The result was that when I moved to a town (for uni,) I didn't think anything much of walking the last bit of the route home alone or anything. We were usually in a group at the start anyway. I only remember one guy offering to walk me home, and I thought he was making a fuss, but agreed, as I was very open to him taking advantage of me (he never did.) So yes, I was brought up that my biggest risk at being out alone at night was poachers.

Oh there are other risks if you’re alone and remote - I mean, going over your ankle with no phone signal could end pretty badly...

But I don’t worry about becoming a victim walking alone.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@JurgenKloppsCat

I think you misunderstood the point of the poster - they said they would rather be beaten up than raped then beaten up. Not sure how anyone could take issue with that. A man would surely rather be beaten up than raped then beaten up? It's just less likely he would be raped in addition to beaten up. It would be equally awful, but is less likely. [/quote]
It's such a simplistic statement in what is a complex area. What if it's a gang of lads who kick somebody until they are in a wheelchair? What if it's a smashed eye socket, or glassing to the neck? What if it's a good, old fashioned stabbing for being in the wrong post code? Who is she to say that some of them men relating their experiences in here are not as damaged as a rape victim? Is there a scale we can measure this on? It was trite and insulting, and I think you know it and just chose to let it slide. I'd really not sidetrack what has been a very informative discussion any further though.

I think there is something in what a pp said about all the little things that have happened to you over the years.

I was touched by an older cousin at the age of 9, he wouldn't stop when I told him I didn't like it, so I lied that I needed to go to the toilet and got away. This was in my own house with our parents there. I never told anyone and in fact blocked it out of my mind until I was 17 and it came back suddenly. I have never told anyone except DH.

So this type of incident and all the times someone has said crappy things to you or intimidated you are there in your mind. DH was always a bit of a magnet for idiots while out drinking and was beaten up once by a bunch of men. He worries more about me though.

I hear what (not all) men say about women every day, they talk about them like utter crap. They look shocked if you call them out on saying shitty things because it is UTTERLY NORMAL to them.

Men are afraid. I've talked to DP about it. We've both lived in London and walked the streets of Brixton late at night. He told me he would be wary of seeing a car slow down, or a car turn around and pass him again, he would be worried when seeing a group of men up ahead, he has run the rest of the way home when he felt in danger.

We own a pub in London and DP told me that one evening he was chatting outside and a young lad walked over and asked if he could stand with him for a minute as there was some dodgy looking lads up the road who he was afraid of.

I thought this was an interesting quote:

"Even if I do get jumped in Finsbury Park as I walk home some night, there’s some deluded bit of me that thinks I could fight, or at least run. I would feel like I have some control, and risks we think (rightly or wrongly) that we can control are less scary. Most women do not have that feeling. It is hardly surprising that the world is scarier for women."

From:
unherd.com/2021/03/why-women-dont-feel-safe/

“It's such a simplistic statement in what is a complex area. What if it's a gang of lads who kick somebody until they are in a wheelchair? What if it's a smashed eye socket, or glassing to the neck? What if it's a good, old fashioned stabbing for being in the wrong post code? Who is she to say that some of them men relating their experiences in here are not as damaged as a rape victim? Is there a scale we can measure this on? It was trite and insulting, and I think you know it and just chose to let it slide. I'd really not sidetrack what has been a very informative discussion any further though.“

You’re still missing the point... what is that the rape she’s saying would make it worse are as well as any of those examples, not instead of.

You really don’t think a gang of lads kicking you until you’re in a wheelchair and then raping you, a smashed eye socket and rape or glasses in the neck and raped are worse than the physical assault alone?

Oh and btw, rape can come with life altering injuries and be alongside other forms of violence... it’s not an either or thing.

@JurgenKloppsCat

It was trite and insulting, and I think you know it and just chose to let it slide.

I've done nothing of the sort, I have no ulterior motive and find it quite upsetting you've responded in a way that implies I have. Your language is accusatory and unnecessarily aggressive. Many of us have shared personal experiences on this thread and have shown deep empathy for men who also go through being attacked in any way. I agree bear not to sidetrack but I wanted to respond to that part of your comment as it was a totally wrong assumption on your part.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@JurgenKloppsCat

It was trite and insulting, and I think you know it and just chose to let it slide.

I've done nothing of the sort, I have no ulterior motive and find it quite upsetting you've responded in a way that implies I have. Your language is accusatory and unnecessarily aggressive. Many of us have shared personal experiences on this thread and have shown deep empathy for men who also go through being attacked in any way. I agree bear not to sidetrack but I wanted to respond to that part of your comment as it was a totally wrong assumption on your part. [/quote]
Apologies. That was out of order. I didn't mean to single you out. I take it back.

@tabulahrasa

“It's such a simplistic statement in what is a complex area. What if it's a gang of lads who kick somebody until they are in a wheelchair? What if it's a smashed eye socket, or glassing to the neck? What if it's a good, old fashioned stabbing for being in the wrong post code? Who is she to say that some of them men relating their experiences in here are not as damaged as a rape victim? Is there a scale we can measure this on? It was trite and insulting, and I think you know it and just chose to let it slide. I'd really not sidetrack what has been a very informative discussion any further though.“

You’re still missing the point... what is that the rape she’s saying would make it worse are as well as any of those examples, not instead of.

You really don’t think a gang of lads kicking you until you’re in a wheelchair and then raping you, a smashed eye socket and rape or glasses in the neck and raped are worse than the physical assault alone?

Oh and btw, rape can come with life altering injuries and be alongside other forms of violence... it’s not an either or thing.

Thank you for explaining this better than I perhaps did. I was also trying to explain that the additional and very real fear of rape in addition to any other type of assault is terrifying. That doesn't undermine any other experiences of assault at all, especially the examples that the PP gave which would be unequivocally abhorrent of course. The point you, me and other posters were making is that the addition of rape / sexual assault to such examples is something women deeply fear and is more likely to be either the motivation for or an addition to the physical assault itself. Upsetting that whataboutery is used when posters including me have shared their personal experiences of rape, sexual assault and deep rooted fear.

Thank you @JurgenKloppsCat I appreciate that

I think lots of men can’t admit they are scared (toxic masculinity etc).
But also if I think of (unknown) male on male violence I think of a punch up not rape or murder. Perhaps that’s my mistake as being a woman it’s not something I think about much. Essentially, I would be less worried being out at night if the risk was that someone the same size as me might give me a black eye rather than someone who could quite conceivably weigh double what I do, rapes or murders me.
I’m not saying men don’t rape or murder other men (obviously!) but I wonder if that’s not the most common concern. I don’t think I’m explaining myself very well here...

I don't feel afraid for a mixture of reasons. I make the assumption that male-on-male violence is mostly gang-related or younger men getting drunk and brawling (I've no idea if that's true). Also because I assume that if someone is opportunistically looking for a victim, there are going to be softer options than me (male, 6ft, burly).

Also because in my experience, the streets are a pretty safe place for me - I've experienced homophobic name-calling in the street once, and someone punched me in the face once after a minor disagreement. That's the sum total of my experience of street harassment or violence.
I was a bit twitchy for a couple of weeks after being punched but got over it quite quickly. I can well imagine that repeated low level harassment would cause quite a different outlook.

Ive known plenty of men that actually are fairly afraid of going into town on a weekend night etc, and I think the ones that arent, are because they either dont mind the risk. They think theyd be able to protect themselves, or sometimes, they even quite like the idea of a fight, but I dont hear that as much as I used to - the idea of going up town looking for a fight was quite big in the 70s and 80s, but not as much now.

I think men have the worry of violence, but they dont have the same worry of sexual violence, as none of the messages are aimed at them

zanahoria I'm sorry this happened to you, did you report it?

Never, just thought it was not worth the bother as nothing would be done.

I would not lean to the school of thought that it is worth reporting just to get it down on record, police encourage this now but was not always the way.

@Comefromaway

"Ds is more streetwise and I’ve certainly had occasions where he’s been on the phone to me whilst walking home because he’s felt unsafe."

He sounds a great lad, more men should get used to taking sensible measures like this

This is actually a thread about men, men's experiences and men's feelings. I don't see it as whataboutery in this instance. I'm not trying to minimise anyone's experiences. Quite the opposite. I'm asking others not to do the same. I think the responses from men, and partners of men, have shown that a lot of men do share your (the wider community) fears. The original comment comes across as 'oh, it's only a bit of a beating'. Perhaps that's just my interpretation.

I would not lean to the school of thought that it is worth reporting

I meant to type " I would now"

really unfortunate typo