Why AREN’T men more afraid?

[Lessthanaballpark]

In all the discussion around Sarah Everard and women’s safety, it keeps coming up that men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence ( the perps being men obvs)

Yet, why then aren’t men more afraid? I can’t remember seeing much in the news about male on male violence.

Is that because it’s easier to feel sympathy for women?

And why aren’t men afraid?

Is it because they think they have a fighting chance against any perps?

Is it because they are not targeted for being men?

Is it because the violence towards women is more sexual?

I’d genuinely like to know what everyone thinks, because it seems to me that they should be more scared than they are.

I read a post earlier where it said men weren’t being targeted because they were men. I think this is untrue. In the situations of random drunken men starting fights with other men that I have seen, women were almost always very clearly excluded as potential victims for the upcoming fight. Many disgusting men see having a fight as part of a night out, but a number of these men also have a code that they will not hit a woman (at least not in public).
The men I know who have been the victims of aggressors have had a variety of attitudes. Some have been extremely tough, but have seen fighting as something that just happens given the place they live. These include a lovely, massive, very tough Glaswegian who used to often come back with new scars after he has been home. I think because of his build and pure existing scars, he was very much someone a weekend fighter saw as being fair game. He saw this as something that happened when he went out in Glasgow. I’d seen him very calmly diffuse a lot of potentially violent situations and never once instigate them, he was the victim of men wanting to somehow rank themselves in some imaginary league of toughness. I think he was always wary, but not actually scared, because as a result of all the fights he has been in, despite not seeking them, he ranked himself very highly in his own imaginary league of toughness.
I’ve known other men, who ranked themselves far lower in their own internal league. One of these thought of himself as an incredibly fast runner with a silver tongue that could get him out of any situation. This belief prevented him being afraid. Unfortunately, that lack of fear only lasted until he was randomly beaten up. He’d been selected by a group of males who didn’t want a “rank improving” fight, but just someone easy to kick the shit out of. It affected him pretty badly for a good while.
I suspect men probably fall into one category or another. Those who habitually start fights (or have friends that frequently start fights that they then feel the need to back up), those who think fights are an annoying but not deadly part of being a man but don’t usually start them, those who fear random violence, and those who feel they are for some reason immune or low risk.
Women, I think, only fall into the last two categories.

We had two sons. Their biggest fear as teenagers was being mugged, which often included being threatened with a knife. Many of our friends had daughters, their biggest fear was sexual assault/rape.
Thankfully none of the girls were attacked, but several reported 'creepy' men, both our sons were mugged. In all cases, their friends advice was to never be alone. I know for a fact my boys didn't always follow that.

I was talking about this to some male family members a while ago, saying that I worry about my son being attacked on a night out in the future. You hear of people being glassed or beaten up. The consensus from them was that they felt quite able to avoid "trouble", and that in their view men ended up in fights mostly with people they knew and had existing issues with or because their behaviour was provicative in some way.

There didn't seem to be that predatory element of for instance being a woman separated from her friends and approached by a stranger.

I wonder about this too.

Part of me thinks comparing women killed by men and men killed by men is simply false equivalence as men are killed in entirely different circumstances to women. If you remove gang violence and drunken brawls from your violence statistics you are left with men being more likely to be mugged and women being more likely to be sexually attacked.

There’s also an issue of risk. When I’m out in dark places at night there are always far more men walking alone than women. Men and women might be attacked in the same numbers, but a lone woman has a higher percentage chance of being attacked than a lone man. Men are attacked whilst taking going about their normal life with minimal precaution. Women are taking precautions, but attacked in the same numbers.

I wonder whether attacks on women would increase if women took the same low level of precaution as men?

A bit of an aside, but I’d like to see the street safety debate reframed in the media as a problem with male violence that impacts us all rather than a problem for women.

I think it's really interesting to hear from women who don't feel fearful after dark. I really wish I didn't.

I am fine if with one other person. It's not the after dark thing, as obviously in winter it's dark early. I find it's after 9.30/10 pm, regardless of the light.

And anywhere particularly isolated during the day, walking alone in the countryside is something the men I know enjoy doing, and they express surprise that not many women do it alone.

I'm inclined to the view that the nature of violence towards men is different and for different motives, and if you were to take away those based on drug turf wars and indeed those committed against black men and boys, I wonder if a white man is less likely to be assaulted than a woman.

" This over-earnest sensitive guy social media penny dropping... are we supposed be grateful? Because it's just really bloody annoying"
Thank you, I've been feeling like this. Engaged less than I would as much of the discussion seems to be driven by men.

I think there is almost certainly a huge age factor too. I'd imagine that it is teens and young adults who are most likely to be the victims of violence on males, and this is the age group who feel most invincible. A quick google shows lots of studies linking feelings of invincibility with risk taking behaviours and aggression in teens.

They don't have that same pile of smaller incidents that women do that make them more scared.

I think this is a really big part of it. If I think back to my last night out with friends (pre-covid), we walked out of the bar as a small group of women and I don't think anyone was feeling unsafe at all. We got about 50 yards down the road and suddenly a very drunk, very big man walked over to us shouting something like "I'd fuck any one of you, you're fucking beautiful" and then when we tried to get past him "oi don't fucking ignore me you fucking bitches!". It's these kinds of incidents (which will never get reported in any kind of crime statistics) which create an air of fear for women.

@newyearnewname123

I think it's really interesting to hear from women who don't feel fearful after dark. I really wish I didn't.

I am fine if with one other person. It's not the after dark thing, as obviously in winter it's dark early. I find it's after 9.30/10 pm, regardless of the light.

And anywhere particularly isolated during the day, walking alone in the countryside is something the men I know enjoy doing, and they express surprise that not many women do it alone.

That’s interesting, I walk my dog alone in isolated woodland and I must be stopped and told by at least one man per month that I should not be walking alone.

The area I walk has had 2 violent attacks in the last 3 years, both lone walking men aged 70+ There has not been a serious attack on a woman for over 20 years.

It’s always lone walking men of about the same age who tell me I should only walk with a friend. The irony. I have come to the conclusion that their belief I am more at risk than they are and their need to evangelise it is a false belief system designed to make them feel safer because they’ve spent their whole life being able to do what they like and don’t want to stop now.

That said, I see about 5 lone men walking for every 1 woman, so perhaps they are correct and it’s just a game of probability?

My husband has been mugged twice - both times when he was out alone late at night, once at knifepoint. I'd never go out alone late at night but even the experience of being mugged hasn't put my husband off going out late, alone. He was in his 50s when this happened.

I think it's because women are exposed to low levels of harassment/intimidation etc more often, so we become more aware. Like lots of little near misses.

I think it's a combination of lots of the things mentioned on this thread, but this in particular. Women receive constant reminders of what a lot of men would like to do to them, through men's comments and behaviour (both irl and online), and through hearing about other women's experiences of it (again, both irl and online). That, combined with the fact that women have always been told to be caitious and take measures in order to protect themselves from male violence, is bound to make us cautious.

This is the first time on MN i have said i just asked my husband and he says ...that men do feel scared and adjust their behaviour. My husband says he is more scared of a group especially if they are drunk than just a lone man going for a walk. So sitting in a train carriage with another man wouldnt bother him but a group falling out a pub would make him cross the road and not make eye contact and walk quicker. But some single men do cause him to feel nervous like if they are off their face and might stab him or about to mug him. He doesnt fear sexual violence at all. He has been assualted by a grouo of drunk men whilst in a club.

I think it because they're "only" afraid of violenc - getting punched or, I guess nowadays, stabbed

Whereas women are also scared or sexual assault - being groped, raped, violated.

A bit of an aside, but I’d like to see the street safety debate reframed in the media as a problem with male violence that impacts us all rather than a problem for women.

Yes. As long as it called out “male violence” rather than keeping the stupid passive tone they use for reporting femicide and domestic violence.

You know, where they say stuff like “women suffer from domestic violence” as if domestic violence is a virus you pick up rather than something with an active perpetrator, ie. a man

Had this conversation with husband, we both lived in similar inner city areas. He was scared of getting beaten up and mugged, worse case scenario....
I think that's the main difference.

A male friend of mine was randomly beaten up and it did scare him and make him nervous of bring out after dark- understandably. But generally he said he stayed away from drunks and felt ablecto defend himself. I used to work in probation services and assaults on males by males were often fuelled by alcohol - on women not so much. I don't think men would see another man walking down a deserted country lane in the middle of the day as a threat, whereas a woman would be cautious.

That’s interesting, I walk my dog alone in isolated woodland and I must be stopped and told by at least one man per month that I should not be walking alone.

That's also interesting, I would definitely go to places with a dog that I wouldn't go completely alone.

The more I think about it, my issue seems to be about the expectation that I should be in that space alone.

So I have internalised the "what was she doing there?" narrative.

Fears are developed so they feel instinctive. I know women who would not arrange workmen to come into their house when alone, but I have done that loads and don't think of it as an issue.

I'm a man, in my 30s now.

When I was in sixth form I was mugged three times in a month. Phone was nicked each time, once with a knife to my throat in front of my younger brother in broad daylight. The insurance company fought paying, but eventually did so on the condition I attended a 'victims of crime' class on street safety.

It was a mixed class, of young men and women my age. It was taught by police folk. They showed us the statistics of who was targeted for street theft and violence (can't remember the details, but it was as you'd expect: men vastly more in danger of injury or death, but women had a greater threat of it being sexual). They taught all of us how to break a grab-lock from behind, but said it was mostly for women. Eyeballs, groin, in-step. Turn yourself from a victim into a source of pain and noise. Women are socialised not to be violent, noisy or messy. Break the mould, break the paralysis, go on the attack and data showed you had a strong chance of walking away. Policewoman talked about the vomiting on yourself trick; Said she'd used it herself when someone grabbed her. Also talked about how even a police woman could be paralysed by social shock, the unexpected break in the rules, and that only her training in overcoming the paralysis and acting in the face of violence gave her the thinking space to do so; that afterwards she thought of all the tactical options she'd actually had (she demonstrated the eyeballs, groin, foot trick, led us all through it) but in the moment was only able to come up with vomit because of the shock.

Fear and shock were the big themes. Fear makes you a target. If you show fear, any trepidation, predators home in on it, even if it's just for harassment to give themselves or their mates a thrill. Men are socialised to not show fear, women are socialised to be afraid and their usual response to harassment (shoulders hunched, turn away) just screams 'target'. Most of the time it would stop at harassment for women, but if a man did the same he was an immediate target for escalating violence. We were taught that body language was key: the ones who looked least afraid were least likely to be attacked. The policewoman said that women who walked about without fear were rare, but those were the ones who would seldom see violence or harassment (or would simply not register harassment as a source of danger or fear).

We were taught body posture, tricks to maintain eye contact under threat (very useful for an aspie in a job interview). I remember when the policeman was talking about 'tactical awareness' to the group and said 'you lads know what I'm talking about': assessing groups for indications of threat, picking routes that were safe and well lit, making sure keys were in your fist and above all making it secret that you were living with your fear. It was the last bit I had failed at, apparently.

Since then I've been attacked three more times. One was a random punch in the face, came out of nowhere when I was walking home from a late shift. Another was five teen-agers jumping me for my phone, literally; also punched me in the face and broke my teeth. The third time I was pretty much expecting to be punched, was already braced and ready, so wasn't scared; they'd stalked me down an empty stretch of road, so I knew what was coming. I turned to face them, and I guess they saw I was ready for violence because after threatening me and taking my change they left me alone.

The class worked, I guess. I walk with maximum awareness, expecting to be assessed as a possible target whenever I'm alone. I identify threats and escape routes. I force myself to walk tall, keep my pace steady (rapid, changing footsteps show fear or other vulnerability), show nothing in my face. After a while it becomes so automatic it's not really fear anymore; it's just another evening stroll. Or maybe that's just what I tell myself so I don't look scared.

One difference is that male cultural norms encourage brushing off such incidents.

As a man I’d say it’s arrogance. I just don’t expect to be attacked by anyone. However, if I saw a dodgy looking person, or group of people then I would/have been scared. I’ve put my keys in-between my fingers a few times. The difference being, women do this almost daily/weekly basis. I’m 33 and have done this a handful of times. I’ve been called names (I have alopecia totalis) by men on the street. But again I can count this on one hand.

A lot of the men who suffer violence (without being overly victim blaming) probably were not completely innocent themselves.

That's also interesting, I would definitely go to places with a dog that I wouldn't go completely alone.

Yes. People are often derisive about 'status' dogs when the dog in question is a large breed with a reputation for being tough, but how many are taken on as bodyguards rather than a status symbol.

I think it isn’t permissible for a man to show fear.

Many disgusting men see having a fight as part of a night out, but a number of these men also have a code that they will not hit a woman (at least not in public).

Yes, I think this is definitely a risk, and I worry about my son encountering that kind of ‘are you looking at me funny?’ violence.

Women don’t count for that kind of violence because they aren’t regarded as competition.

I think some young men involved in gangs are afraid; they can't go out of their postcode for fear of violence. Some male teens are also afraid of being mugged by other teens.
But generally I don't think adult men are afraid when they go out.

Fears are developed so they feel instinctive. I know women who would not arrange workmen to come into their house when alone, but I have done that loads and don't think of it as an issue.
But the risks are always there. My 60 year old colleague never had a problem until last year when the plumber put his hands up her top.