Why AREN’T men more afraid?

[Lessthanaballpark]

In all the discussion around Sarah Everard and women’s safety, it keeps coming up that men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence ( the perps being men obvs)

Yet, why then aren’t men more afraid? I can’t remember seeing much in the news about male on male violence.

Is that because it’s easier to feel sympathy for women?

And why aren’t men afraid?

Is it because they think they have a fighting chance against any perps?

Is it because they are not targeted for being men?

Is it because the violence towards women is more sexual?

I’d genuinely like to know what everyone thinks, because it seems to me that they should be more scared than they are.

I have been looking into this as well.

I wouldn't have said I was afraid when I walk the dog late at night, but that is because I know he will go for anyone near me. (he is reactive not loyal)

But a few weeks ago, I walked round a corner and screamed because there was a man standing there that I hadn't seen. TBF he was very respectful, asked if I was ok and then walked off in the other direction (I am not sure if he was going that way)

I do know that when I go out, I put on baggy clothes to try and hide my figure and wear a hat with my hair hidden underneath, because although I am not scared to do it, I would be an idiot to try and invite it. But I didn't equate that to fear, more just being sensible, but then I look at my partner doing the same walk, he just puts his shoes on. I assume I am just more conditioned.

My partner isn't scared and I think its because he think he can fight someone off.

I agree with you about fetishization of women's fear and the way media shows women as victims with unrealistic frequency.

But I think it's also because women experience a lot of intimidation by men on the streets. Comments and posturing and low level sexual assault is fairly common even in very public, high trafficked places. Cat calling from cars, young men blocking routes and leering, groping on public transport is very everyday and I think that increases women's perception of being a potential target of violence from strangers.

Men do get intimidated some of the time, but with nowhere near frequency or in the variety of ways and from the variety of men that women do.

I think the comments about men being socialised not to show fear and to go ahead with things anyway are very relevant too. While for women care, anxiety even, over safety is encouraged.

What makes you think they aren't afraid?

I was just reading a reddit thread with hundreds of men talking about the fear they feel about walking alone at night but most said they would never voice it as they would be perceived as weak. that men are expected to be strong and to face danger head on and to even jump in and protect others. They are expected to have a fight response in the face of fear and to not show their fear.

@Lessthanaballpark

Sometimes I think it’s to do with the fetishisation of women’s fear. Lingering shots over dead women’s bodies on murder shows. The tabloids always sensationalising sex and murder.

I’d like to know what the majority of male on male violence consists of. I feel like it’s never reported.

Do you remember a few months ago when stabbings were hardly out of the news? Some gang warfare and a lot of robberies. I'd imagine that sort of thing makes up a lot of the numbers. Separately, alcohol-related violence will account for a lot.

I'm a man in my mid-20s. In my job, I have to ask people to pay for their train travel. Some of them do not take kindly to this. I have been threatened a few times. Does it stop me doing revenue duties? No. I know that 99% of people are fine and that I have always survived my encounters with the other 1% with nose intact (more by luck than judgement).

There has only ever been one occasion where I have thought "oh my god, I'm going to become a statistic". This wasn't at work, I was instead walking from a concert venue to check in to my hostel at around 22:30, carrying a small overnight bag. I was walking along a poorly lit path in London when a moped with two riders pulled up at a side street 100yds behind me. Mopeds were all over the news at this time and I broke into a run. I've no idea if they were really what I feared they were but I wasn't sticking around to find out.

Other than that though, as I have always lived in safe areas, I've never known real fear. I say I live in a safe area but the local police force have for months been putting out warnings about a man following women along the promenades of several nearby towns so it's clearly not safe for everyone.

Sexual harassment/assault? I could count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've been groped. That's all. The incident which sticks out in mind was a drunken woman in her forties who thought that it would be hilarious to insist that I retrieve her ticket from her cleavage (despite the rest of the group having behaved themselves). I declined of course and continued about my duties. On at least one of the times that I had to pass, my buttocks were groped. How did I feel about her behaviour? Grossed out of course, but my only actual fear was that if I challenged her in any way, I'd be the one being disciplined. I never felt fear for my personal safety.

I've never felt the need to change my activity due to fears of crime. When I went to the corner shop earlier, safety meant taking a torch so that I didn't fall down the steps and wearing a coat because it was raining. Crime never entered my head.

I think it's a combination of things.

The law and police etc were set up by men for the sort of things that affect men. The type of things that happen to women and girls were tagged on later but aren't seen in the same way.

Everyone knows that a punch in the face is violence. But a hard bruising slap on the arse? Being wanked at when you're young and it's a secluded area? Being followed? All of that is.. not so bad. Not violent. Not harming. The female perspective on these things is absent.

On the stats, sexual violence is recorded separately to violence I think. Who knows what the true story is? Women get a lot of stuff that is seen as trivial from a young age. It all adds up. It's rarely reported. It makes us wary.

Women are not out and about so much because of this. Cabs. Avoiding dodgy areas/ pubs. That sort of thing.

And women and girls are given strong messages from when we are young that essentially we are prey and we need to 'look after ourselves' which combines with experience to create in many women and girls a general feeling of. Not fear exactly. But awareness. Caution. Being on the alert.

I had a conversation with DH a few years ago. He said he always got 'started on' by men with what he called small man syndrome as he's a big bloke.

We talked about situations that were dodgy etc and I had way way more than him.

Is there analysis around the men being murdered? I might have a look. My guess is that it's a higher risk in certain areas etc and outside that it's a low risk.

Whereas women and girls get all sorts of stuff all the time when we're just going about our business.

Some are afraid. My DH is a smaller man (not tiny he is average height with broad shoulders but small frame/bones) and he gets nervous when out and about alone at night or in certain club/pub type situations (when drink men can get aggro).

He in conscious that men are at risk statistically. He's also been randomly attacked in the street (punched in the face completely randomly by someone walking past him). He's also not aggressive or violent so is nervous of more aggro men. When he was punched his instinct was just to freeze which doesn't help as I don't think he feels he will fare well if he were attacked.

However he doesn't feel he can show this nervousness at all as men have to feel strong and brave and aren't really allowed to show "weakness". So men who are scared probably don't talk about it.

@LunaHeather

Is it lack of awareness possibly?

I've had some male contacts who were victims of really violent muggings, including being bashed at the back of the head with a brick, one who had the shit kicked out of him because he had no money, and another held at knifepoint after being tricked into stopping his car on a narrow road.

I think all of them would tell me not to be out alone late at night but never thought of themselves as potential victims.

There was also a work colleague who was off sick and asked HR to keep the reason quiet, which of course is fine. But then he resigned, when he came in to collect his stuff, we saw his face was very poorly. He had been punched so hard in a mugging, the eyeball floor had shifted. he left london and went to live with his parents again and said he was scared to live here.

God that's so awful for your ex colleague. Heartbreaking.

My DP was violently mugged in London years ago and he’s very wary of walking past groups of young men on his own

I think women are taught they are at risk from a young age and that they have to do xyz to minimise it. And also if stuff happens it is probably their own fault.

With men I think they don't get that message and it feels more down to bad luck. They aren't given the message they are at risk every 5 mins.

Also with women we get all this low level stuff and we never know if that's it or if he will go further.

I really think the experiences are very different.

Also I feel at risk when out and about but not just from men.

I have been flashed by a man, mugged by a man.

But also beaten up by a group of teen boys and girls. I've also been hit by a girl who accosted me in the street.

I am definitely conscious when walking about alone that I am small and weak and couldn't fight many people off especially men. But I am on the look out for anyone, male or female, who could be a risk to me.

Breezle I'm sorry for what happened to your DH.

It seems like a dick thing to say but I think many women and girls feel concerned about having to walk past groups of young men full stop.

I've had loads of stuff

Mugged twice once with injuries
Punched in the face by a random man at the bus stop
Spat at more than one
Been offered money for sex more than once
Had beer poured over my head.
Had a man walk up to me in the pub force my jaw open and stick his tongue down my throat
Been followed
Wanked at
I mean it goes on and on

I don't think men get that sort of ongoing stuff so much.

Even the male gaze! Now I'm older it's more or less gone. It's lovely. You don't realise how it makes you feel having the staring and the up and down looks all the time until it stops. It's a revelation!

I think it's because women are exposed to low levels of harassment/intimidation etc more often, so we become more aware. Like lots of little near misses.

I live in a small town and generally feel safe out running/walking, but I only takes one man yelling something to put me on edge for a few days. Doesn't happen often, but I imagine if it does happen more regularly you would be in a heightened state much more.

I wouldn't want to silence anyone, but all of the threads etc about being attacked, grabbed, yelled at etc do make me feel anxious.

I don’t agree with the perception that all women are terrified of these issues. Unfortunately, there is a tendency to assume all women think that way.

Such an interesting thread. I was discussing same w DH. In our collective experience almost all the men we know have been mugged or physically attacked outside of the home (punching, fight starting) without provocation. This is accepted as normal by men and women in our experience. But it is violence perpetrated by men. I'd classify it as Street violence and both men and women are victims but much more men than women. Women experience much more street harassment than men, not violence. Women experience almost all domestic violence. So there are different categories of violence and harassment. Almost entirely perpetrated by men and with both men and women as the victims. I think men need to get angry with the violent men in this society that cause so much damage to us all.

I like in a fairly grotty bit of London. I sometimes go out running after the kids go to bed. I’m aware of what is around me but I’m not hugely worried. That said I would choose my route and not play music etc. I presume, but may be wrong that most men murdering men do it to people they know or maybe gangs, perhaps nightclub fights too. I think men attacking women is probably way more random, I’d be really worried if my wife did the same runs.

@FATEdestiny - your post was really interesting. Could I ask about your physique - are you a tall woman? I am, and I think that can influence the level of threat or fear we experience.

I’ve never been groped (except in a nightclub) - I’ve just never had that awful experience on public transport that other women have had and I wonder if’s because men think twice about “picking on someone their own size”

As a man i don't think we are vocal about it. If you were in a group and a man asked someone to walk him home he'd get this piss ripped out of him if a woman asked nobody would think anything about it.

A few of my friends have been attacked over the years and it's never really talked about after the event.

Useful stats here on the difference between who kills men and who kills women:

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019#which-groups-of-people-were-most-likely-to-be-victims-of-homicide

@EsmaCannonball

Men are most often murdered expediently, whereas women are killed for entertainment. People fear murder but it's pretty exceptional for an adult male to be kidnapped, raped and tortured first. Women's nightmares can come true.

The men who murder other men mostly seem to be yobs, overt criminals or deranged. The men who murder women seem to live double lives. Put it this way, a taxi-driver might avoid picking up yobbish passengers in case they beat him up, but a man isn't going to worry about getting a taxi in case the driver rapes and murders him.

Rightly or wrongly, the perception is that most male murder victims are very young and involved in high-risk activity. There's the sense that men age out of risk or can take steps to avoid risk. Women murdered by strangers are targeted for being who they are and can vanish into thin air between the bus-stop and home. There's the sense that it's all completely random and beyond our control.

Above all, women face nasty little incidents all the time and each time we think, 'Is this man going to leave it at that, or is this the prelude to something really horrifying?' Most men don't rape or murder us, but there's a lot that get off on using the potential of it. Do we get threatened more, and by men who look 'ordinary'?

I think this pretty much has it. It’s the idea of being targeted, kidnapped and it being a prolonged situation. Rather than just a one off random event coz someone wants your wallet. And also, all the smaller situations that happen so much and men getting off on their power. Like leching when you’re in a situation you can’t get out of. Maybe if men had regular threats of sexual violence, they would feel like that too. But my understanding is that they don’t have regular threats of violence made towards them. I mean white men. I’m sure it feels different for men who experience racism.

@Justanotherworkingmom

I don’t agree with the perception that all women are terrified of these issues. Unfortunately, there is a tendency to assume all women think that way.

I’m not terrified - but I do sometimes change my behaviour because there’s a man and I identify that there’s a possible danger of “something” happening,

I’ve changed my route or phoned people because a man looks like he’s doing something dodgy, I’ve had to get off a bus early because a man sat next to me and was real creepy, on nights out we work out the taxi route so nobody is left alone with the driver

None of those are because I’m terrified of being raped or murdered, they’re because experience has taught me that men do unpleasant things in those sort of situations and I’m trying to avoid those, but also at the back of my mind I’m aware that they could do worse things than just unpleasant or uncomfortable things...

I think men need to get angry with the violent men in this society that cause so much damage to us all.

Well that’s another massive question. Why don’t they?

Especially those types who always react to women’s laments about male violence with the fact that men are in more danger.

So if you have more reason to be afraid then why not campaign?

One guy told me that it was because women make more fuss!

@FATEdestiny I'm really glad you made that post. I've been thinking much the same for the last few days: I just don't feel the fear the so many women are discussing. I do live in a very "safe" area now, but I grew up in a big city environment and didn't feel it then either. It is hard to discuss without appearing to minimise the concerns of other women.

In a word: patriarchy. Our fear stems from the fact that girls and women are hated by toxic men and that hatred is systemic and institutionalised. We are consistently blamed or ignored when we report hate crimes against us. That is what we are up against. Men are probably often ashamed and keep quiet too if they get beaten up.or raped by toxic men, because they were too weak to defend themselves

I think what I fear most is violation, having been verbally and physically violated by men since age 13 in a million minor and several.major ways. Violation.