Gender bending. Documentary on the telly.

[PurpleHoodie]

This Morning is promoting a programme about The Blitz Club.

When gender bending was all the rage and very 'Pop'.

When people understood female and Male AND gender bending.

The TRAs are going to hate it. Or not understand it. The young TRAs will have their eyes opened to who the older (to them) LGB/GC people are.

Get ready for the narc' rage.

... Have you tried having a conversation with gender nonconforming trans people, ever?

Some trans people believe in gender identity ideology, some don’t. If you would like to explain how the concept of gender identity isn’t conservative, please go ahead.

No. Provide a definition that explains your unreasoned opinion or you negate your point.

Meanwhile.... the programme is on Sky Arts, which is on Freeview channel 9, 9pm tonight.

Some trans people believe in gender identity ideology, some don’t. If you would like to explain how the concept of gender identity isn’t conservative, please go ahead.

Gender isn't 'I'm masculine therefore I'm a boy' or 'I'm feminine therefore I'm a girl', which is the conclusion you seem to jump to, rather than 'I'm a woman/man/non-binary because this is the word and group I feel addresses who I am whereas the others don't'.

@MoreJammyDodgersPlease

Meanwhile.... the programme is on Sky Arts, which is on Freeview channel 9, 9pm tonight.

Oops, Freeview channel 11.

^Then you'd think you'd realize how full of shit the statement that trans people are reinforcing gender norms is, given trans people are as conforming and non-conforming as cis people.*

You are conflating ‘trans’ and ‘gender identity ideology’. Gender identity ideology is the belief that ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ identities exist and they are related to sex.

You are conflating ‘trans’ and ‘gender identity ideology’. Gender identity ideology is the belief that ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ identities exist and they are related to sex.

You are conflating 'gender identity ideology' with anything other than a transphobic dogwhistle.

@Evarish

Some trans people believe in gender identity ideology, some don’t. If you would like to explain how the concept of gender identity isn’t conservative, please go ahead.

Gender isn't 'I'm masculine therefore I'm a boy' or 'I'm feminine therefore I'm a girl', which is the conclusion you seem to jump to, rather than 'I'm a woman/man/non-binary because this is the word and group I feel addresses who I am whereas the others don't'.

And why does that group address who you are?

(By the way this sounds just like being a punk or a mod, but more conservative)

Then you'd think you'd realize how full of shit the statement that trans people are reinforcing gender norms is, given trans people are as conforming and non-conforming as cis people. Yes!

That's a long, long discussion that needs to be had. PLEASE start a thread on it!

Gender isn't 'I'm masculine therefore I'm a boy' or 'I'm feminine therefore I'm a girl', which is the conclusion you seem to jump to, rather than 'I'm a woman/man/non-binary because this is the word and group I feel addresses who I am whereas the others don't'. Maybe start with that!

And no, I am not being sarcastic, taking the piss or anything negative.

That really is a discussion we could do with having. But only if the voices of both 'sides' are heard.

I would engage. I may not agree, but I would engage and aim to be polite about it, no assumptions.

@Evarish

You are conflating ‘trans’ and ‘gender identity ideology’. Gender identity ideology is the belief that ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ identities exist and they are related to sex.

You are conflating 'gender identity ideology' with anything other than a transphobic dogwhistle.

No, I am trying to understand why anyone would promote ideas that in my life time in the U.K. would have reduced my access to education and work, and still would in many parts of the world. Calling that a ‘transphobic dog whistle’ without explanation is just shutting down communication.

This is the feminist board. I am talking about women’s rights.

Please explain if you can.

You are conflating 'gender identity ideology' with anything other than a transphobic dogwhistle. But none of that!

And why does that group address who you are?

Unless you're expecting me to churn out a Masters' degree in psychology on the spot, I'm afraid you'll have to settle for the answer of 'people do what they do'.

(By the way this sounds just like being a punk or a mod, but more conservative)

Call me when conservatives ignore all gender stereotypes and demands to do what they want across the whole spectrum of gender and sex with the only limitation being safety concerns and money.

No, I am trying to understand why anyone would promote ideas that in my life time in the U.K. would have reduced my access to education and work, and still would in many parts of the world. Calling that a ‘transphobic dog whistle’ without explanation is just shutting down communication.

How is something that doesn't exist that's solely used to point to, quote, 'gender woo weirdo's and straight people with blue hair who are trying to be special', capable of reducing your access to anything?

Unless you're expecting me to churn out a Masters' degree in psychology on the spot, I'm afraid you'll have to settle for the answer of 'people do what they do'. Nope! I won't settle for that. That's imsulting. Why should I accept colonisation of my sex because 'people do what they do"?

I can easily accept any deviation from the social norms of sex based stereotypes, as I said, I have long lived that way myself. But I cannot acquiesce in the negating of women's rights.

Nope! I won't settle for that. That's imsulting. Why should I accept colonisation of my sex because 'people do what they do"?

Brits talking about colonizing anything really is the epitome of irony.

I can easily accept any deviation from the social norms of sex based stereotypes, as I said, I have long lived that way myself. But I cannot acquiesce in the negating of women's rights.

Good news, women's rights aren't being negated, they're being expanded on to try and include all women.

Call me when conservatives ignore all gender stereotypes and demands to do what they want across the whole spectrum of gender and sex with the only limitation being safety concerns and money.

Except gender identity means conforming to gender stereotypes, or defining your identity against the belief that everyone else conforms to gender stereotypes. The concept of feminine identity relies on a stereotypical identity shared by women.

A man wearing a dress is only gender non conforming if he agrees that he is male.

How is something that doesn't exist that's solely used to point to, quote, 'gender woo weirdo's and straight people with blue hair who are trying to be special', capable of reducing your access to anything? Wrong place to ask that question. FWR is full to the brim of concrete examples.

Start with Sam Smith and his request of The Brits...

Then maybe Torrey Peters, another ongoing issue

Then maybe USA High School sprinting for girls

And the ongoing saga of Pips Bunce, maybe.

Brits talking about colonizing anything really is the epitome of irony. How dare you assume my ethnicity?

But you do reveal yourself a little!

Good news, women's rights aren't being negated, they're being expanded on to try and include all women.

You cannot protect the rights of people you can’t define. You cannot protect the rights of people if you can’t explain what they have in common.

Good news, women's rights aren't being negated, they're being expanded on to try and include all women. All women? Tall, short, black, white, Brit even?

Or are you suggesting that transwomen are women because human beings can change sex. Again, that won't fly here.

Tranwomen are transwomen and should be celebrated for that.

@Evarish

Haven't you noticed? Some of us live with, work with just such individuals.

Take away the notion of trans and I AM one of those people!

Then you'd think you'd realize how full of shit the statement that trans people are reinforcing gender norms is, given trans people are as conforming and non-conforming as cis people.

What are trans people conforming or not conforming to?

Is there a legitimate argument that someone who is male but feels female can not conform to the stereotypes of femininity and so express himself/herself by wearing masculine clothes, playing rugby and downing pints at the weekend?

That sounds sarcastic but honestly, is that a legitimate position to hold?

I sometimes wonder what would have happened to Boy George if he'd been young today. I fear that if he'd been prancing around wearing some net curtains and growing his hair he might have been taken to the doctor and put on the trans conveyor belt and given puberty blockers etc.

Is there a legitimate argument that someone who is male but feels female can not conform to the stereotypes of femininity and so express himself/herself by wearing masculine clothes, playing rugby and downing pints at the weekend? Oooh! I'd like to know that too!

Then again I do. Knock your socks off, be who you really are.

@Kendodd

I sometimes wonder what would have happened to Boy George if he'd been young today. I fear that if he'd been prancing around wearing some net curtains and growing his hair he might have been taken to the doctor and put on the trans conveyor belt and given puberty blockers etc.

Yes! As he and Marilyn said on a rado/magazine interview a couple of years ago. They are men, gay men, feminine gay men in appearance. They ain't trans, don't want to be transed. And they took quite a bit of stick for it, both branded Truscum, iirr.