Gender bending. Documentary on the telly.

[PurpleHoodie]

This Morning is promoting a programme about The Blitz Club.

When gender bending was all the rage and very 'Pop'.

When people understood female and Male AND gender bending.

The TRAs are going to hate it. Or not understand it. The young TRAs will have their eyes opened to who the older (to them) LGB/GC people are.

Get ready for the narc' rage.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/equal-treatment-bench-book-february-v6-2018.pdf

“2. Transgender is a broad, umbrella term used to describe a wide variety of people who cross the conventional boundaries of gender.

1. The term ‘transgender’ is commonly used in a narrow sense to describe those people whose gender identity does not correspond to the gender assigned to them at birth, and who identify with the opposite gender. Such transgender people may have a strong and persistent desire to permanently reassign their gender and to live in accordance with their gender identity. The Gender Recognition Act 2004 (‘GRA’) and Equality Act 2010 refer to this narrower group of transgender people as ‘transsexual’ people.
2. The gender landscape is rapidly changing, as is the terminology in the

field. The broader meaning of ‘transgender’ encompasses a wide range of gender identities and experiences which fall outside the traditional gender binary (ie categorising people exclusively as male or female). For example, increasing numbers of people identify as ‘non-binary’ (ie they feel neither male nor female, and may associate with elements of both or neither gender), ‘a- gender’ (literally ‘without gender’), ‘genderqueer’ (a broad term increasingly popular among young people who do not identify with traditional gender categories, and often associated with a political rejection or radical subversion of conventional gender categories) and as ‘gender fluid’ (fluctuating between genders). Some people cross-dress on an occasional basis, some identify as ‘transvestites’; they may also consider themselves transgender. UK law has not yet caught up with these social changes, and presently makes express provision only for those who wish to reassign their gender to the opposite gender from that assigned to them at birth”

www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

Yes, we know all of that, really. Those if us who were gender benders, gay, straight or trans ('tranny' in the language of the day). We know, we'd even say we were very good at accepting people as they presented themselves. No judgement, just acceptance.

Yet we all knew it was gender based. For some a desire to thrill, some a fashion, some a fetish, others a desire to throw over sex based stereotypes. Yes, even way back in the 80s we had those ideas.

I have no idea how we got from a youth culture that accepted people at face value to this strict enforcement of sex stereotypes.

@merrymouse

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/equal-treatment-bench-book-february-v6-2018.pdf

“2. Transgender is a broad, umbrella term used to describe a wide variety of people who cross the conventional boundaries of gender.

1. The term ‘transgender’ is commonly used in a narrow sense to describe those people whose gender identity does not correspond to the gender assigned to them at birth, and who identify with the opposite gender. Such transgender people may have a strong and persistent desire to permanently reassign their gender and to live in accordance with their gender identity. The Gender Recognition Act 2004 (‘GRA’) and Equality Act 2010 refer to this narrower group of transgender people as ‘transsexual’ people.
2. The gender landscape is rapidly changing, as is the terminology in the

field. The broader meaning of ‘transgender’ encompasses a wide range of gender identities and experiences which fall outside the traditional gender binary (ie categorising people exclusively as male or female). For example, increasing numbers of people identify as ‘non-binary’ (ie they feel neither male nor female, and may associate with elements of both or neither gender), ‘a- gender’ (literally ‘without gender’), ‘genderqueer’ (a broad term increasingly popular among young people who do not identify with traditional gender categories, and often associated with a political rejection or radical subversion of conventional gender categories) and as ‘gender fluid’ (fluctuating between genders). Some people cross-dress on an occasional basis, some identify as ‘transvestites’; they may also consider themselves transgender. UK law has not yet caught up with these social changes, and presently makes express provision only for those who wish to reassign their gender to the opposite gender from that assigned to them at birth”

I still cant see how that encompasses New Romantics, I'm sure there were a great deal of people who relished the scene as an outlet but in general surely it was just a passing fashion.

I was never a part of the scene so I admit I'm looking at it as an outsider

I was part of the Mod revival, I'm afraid we were very snobbish about music and fashion, also at the time I had no interest in gender issues. Perhaps the whole New Romantic thing just passed me by.

I have no idea how we got from a youth culture that accepted people at face value to this strict enforcement of sex stereotypes.

Thatcher's 80s have ended up seeming further away from the 1950s than where we are now. Is she having the last laugh or something?!

Wouldn't surprise me!

And yes, it does feel like that.

We had a workable solution... and we chose to throw it away! Manbags, guyliner and Gordon Gecko have a lot to answer for.

“genderqueer’ (a broad term increasingly popular among young people who do not identify with traditional gender categories, and often associated with a political rejection or radical subversion of conventional gender categories) and as ‘gender fluid’ (fluctuating between genders). Some people cross-dress on an occasional basis”

nowayhozay, who are you excluding from this definition and why? Remember trans includes cross dressers and feelings of gender dysphoria are not necessarily relevant.

Are you dismissing New Romantics as chart topping groups popular with teenage girls? In which case, as you admit, you should perhaps question your snobbery and also watch the documentary.

@merrymouse

“genderqueer’ (a broad term increasingly popular among young people who do not identify with traditional gender categories, and often associated with a political rejection or radical subversion of conventional gender categories) and as ‘gender fluid’ (fluctuating between genders). Some people cross-dress on an occasional basis”

nowayhozay, who are you excluding from this definition and why? Remember trans includes cross dressers and feelings of gender dysphoria are not necessarily relevant.

Are you dismissing New Romantics as chart topping groups popular with teenage girls? In which case, as you admit, you should perhaps question your snobbery and also watch the documentary.

I don't mean to be dismissive of the New Romantics, it just wasn't something that I was interested in. I know it was huge at the time just not for me or most of my friends.

I doubt the New Romantics would have been interested in what we were wearing or listening to either.

This was a passing fashion, boys wearing heavy make up and flamboyant outfits. As I said before I'm sure there were some trans people who used the fashion to be able to express themselves and that is wonderful but in general these were not cross dressers and I doubt the vast majority of them continued to dress in a feminine way once the fashion died out.

I cant accept a whole fashion movement being included under the trans umbrella.
I think the idea shows a lack of understanding.

I will watch the documentary with interest and an open mind though.

but in general these were not cross dressers

So what is the definition of a cross dresser? If fashion can't be the motivation behind the need to cross dress, what is?

Transsexual, or Transgender Shizuku?

Bearing in mind the latter call (and treat) the former as Scum.

That's... just a blatant lie (not that I'm surprised). A significant portion of the transgender population includes those who fit the description of transsexual, but a number of them don't identify as such.

Truscum is a term for people who insist on medical demands that gender identity clinics themselves don't make (including a demand for gender dysphoria), often harassing trans people who don't meet their criteria (whatever their criteria of the day is - - sometimes it's some manner of clothing style that someone wears, other times it's 'not showing you're dysphoric enough' because you dared use a different word than they do for your own genitals, other times it's using they/them pronouns, other times it's not wanting to have some form of surgery).

As for The Blitz Club- I'm... more confused why you think it'll piss trans rights activists off than that I'm confused by the style itself. I mean I'd re-date it a lot if I wore it today, but... really? You think this'll draw any negative emotion out of us whatsoever?

This was a passing fashion, boys wearing heavy make up and flamboyant outfits. As I said before I'm sure there were some trans people who used the fashion to be able to express themselves and that is wonderful but in general these were not cross dressers and I doubt the vast majority of them continued to dress in a feminine way once the fashion died out. From the perspective of someone who was a NR... it wasn't just a fashion, or even the music. It was an ethos of personal liberty. DH was Mod/Northern Soul and we have had this conversation a few times over the years. NR allowed, embraced LGB and T and didn't oust the Straights either. Many maintained some of the dress in their day jobs, I did. My best male friend did, still does (now mid 50s, straight but chooses to wear all sorts of clothing considered feminine') and we still have our transvestite friend too, also straight, married and fetishising at the weekend! Then the 90s came and Metrosexualised it all!

I cant accept a whole fashion movement being included under the trans umbrella. I think the idea shows a lack of understanding. I think you have that backwards... wouldn't the trans umbrella claim the whole NR scene if it happened these days. Back then nobody cared, or wore a label. Much like Marilyn, the singer. He was a he, a gay man... wore dresses, make up, took a female stage name based on school bullying. Today he is still a flamboyant, feminine gay man! But TAs have tried to Trans him, even Truscum'd him!

I will watch the documentary with interest and an open mind though. You never know, you are quite likely to catch a glimpse of the Modfather in there. He was something of a regular - honest

Truscum is a term for people who insist on medical demands that gender identity clinics themselves don't make (including a demand for gender dysphoria), often harassing trans people who don't meet their criteria But the real lived experience of my transvestite mate is that he has been called Truscum, for being a 'weekender' and laughing at the idea he might be trans. I've been with him when that has happened!

I cant accept a whole fashion movement being included under the trans umbrella.
I think the idea shows a lack of understanding.

I’m not saying they should be, just that under current definitions they are.

[quote PurpleHoodie]www.sky.com/watch/title/programme/186a44fc-09a1-4c13-b040-ff8c318286e1/blitzed-the-80s-blitz-kids-story-186a44fc-09a1-4c13-b040-ff8c318286e1/episodes/season-0/episode-1[/quote]
Thank you

Don't use the t-slur in a response to me, thanks.

So some transwomen don't consider others to be proper transwomen? So are they against the reforms to the Gender Recognition Act ? Do they consider these " other" transwomen to be merely cross dressers ?

@Evarish

Don't use the t-slur in a response to me, thanks.

Who me?

I didn't use any T word towards you!

Agree curious samphire. Punk and NR were not just fashion. They were about self expression, identity and often politics. I would guess that the same is true of other cultural movements.

You think this'll draw any negative emotion out of us whatsoever?

I wouldn’t expect it to draw negative emotion, but it does represent people challenging rather than enforcing gender norms which is what the very conservative concept of gender identity does.

Yes merrymouse! My own small group was quite political, non party politics.

It's embarrassing to think of some of the things we did... but we did mean it ma'am (on one probably quite well forgotten day at the Grafton Centre). Actually I have just Googled it.. and there is nothing about it at all!

@334bu

*but in general these were not cross dressers*

So what is the definition of a cross dresser? If fashion can't be the motivation behind the need to cross dress, what is?

Not sure that I can easily define that.

I accept that in practice to an extent the boys were crossdressing in as far as the fashion was very feminine but if they were actually true crossdressers/ trans then why would the movement have died out ?
Wouldn't it have grown and developed?

I define a crossdresser as someone who is compelled to wear clothes traditionally associated with the opposite sex.
This could range from a simple fetish right through to someone who needs to dress completely to feel at peace with themselves.

In my experience they don't chose to crossdress its just a part of who they are.

My own DS has been crossdressing since he was very young, it certainly wasn't / isn't a fashion choice for him.

I wouldn’t expect it to draw negative emotion, but it does represent people challenging rather than enforcing gender norms which is what the very conservative concept of gender identity does.

... Have you tried having a conversation with gender nonconforming trans people, ever?

Have you tried having a conversation with gender nonconforming trans people, ever? Haven't you noticed? Some of us live with, work with just such individuals.

Take away the notion of trans and I AM one of those people!

Haven't you noticed? Some of us live with, work with just such individuals.

Take away the notion of trans and I AM one of those people!

Then you'd think you'd realize how full of shit the statement that trans people are reinforcing gender norms is, given trans people are as conforming and non-conforming as cis people.

I accept that in practice to an extent the boys were crossdressing in as far as the fashion was very feminine but if they were actually true crossdressers/ trans then why would the movement have died out ?
Wouldn't it have grown and developed?

Gender fluidity is perfectly acceptable under current definitions of trans. Gender conformity is also acceptable.