The cognitive dissonance from 'TWAW' women

[CheeryTreeBlossom]

I've seen a few things today on social media which got me thinking: How do "liberal" feminists square up the argument that being a women is a feeling vs the experience we all know?

1. The awful disappearance of Sarah Everard has led to an outpouring on twitter of women highlighting how they are essentially bound by a curfew all the time (and not just when the police "helpfully suggest" it) and feel the fear of being followed/harassed/assaulted by men in public constantly.

2. Kamala Harris posted a video on Instagram about the 2.5million women how have left the workforce in the US (similar stats on Guardian about the UK) and it's driven by women being in lower paid work and not having access to childcare when schools close.

3. This scene from Fleabag appeared on my Facebook feed where Kristin Scott Thomas gives a powerful speech about how women are constantly affected by their bodies through the start of menstruation to menopause. Lots of positive articles from the time it aired:
   www.refinery29.com/en-gb/fleabag-season-2-episode-3

And yet these same women would call others bigots for saying biology matters and instead that feelings are more important to being a woman than anything else?
That to dislike finding myself in an enclosed public space with someone visibly male is phobic, and that our reproductively system has a huge impact in our lives and why women are still discriminated against?

Argh. I'm just sick of being the only one in my friends group that seems to see the hypocrisy.
They say JKR is a nasty transphobe but equally complain about the patriarchy and how childcare costs put women put of work

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

all I can say is 'oh dear!'. The hatred of women that twidiot has is just incredible.

They also seem to think feminism is some catch-all dustbin for every 'identity' and 'marginalised movement' rather than something that is by women for women.

This cannot be stated enough.

Feminism is for, and about girls and women.
(Females)

Just listening to Jess Phillips on BBC news.

Brilliant woman!

Here is a perfect example from Caitlin Moran who knows exactly what a woman is because she makes a living from writing about them but

Oh I saw Caitlin Moran had deleted something because I saw a bunch of TRAs quoting her and telling her off, but her original tweet had gone.
Bloody ridiculous that a woman can't mention her womb without being piled on.

I think there's a fair bit of this: 'a notion women may have that by being "good" we can escape the degraded status of females and achieve a status of citizen or honorary man', as though by doing the right thing by the patriarchy they will be saved from it. I also think there's a lot of a kind of victim-blaming to the position, as if the women who are going to be most affected by the removal of things like single-sex spaces are somehow in the wrong for being adversely affected, such as religious women (shouldn't be religious), women in prison (shouldn't be in prison), women who have a history of trauma (shouldn't have been assaulted, abused or attacked in the first place).

I was going to start a thread on similar lines. My genuine belief is that a large proportion of these people saying TWAW don't actually believe it. They don't actually believe you don't know someone's sex until they announce their gender, they don't believe TW are women in every conceivable way. It's a bit of an intellectual exercise, a 'well actually' but not an ingrained belief. (That's not to say there aren't people who think and live like this, and are embedded in trans culture and the trans community - I'm not including them in in this, just the casual 'twaw' supporters who take potshots at GC women).

I have come to this conclusion after several years on here. It is extremely common to see these people, who state they believe TWAW, slip up and refer to them as the wrong gender, wrong pronoun, etc (or confuse trans men and trans women, for example). There was a period not long ago where I saw it every day. Drawing attention to it made them angry and they said it was 'just a mistake' but I really don't think you would actually call someone by the wrong pronoun if you thoroughly believed them to be that sex. It would seem wrong.

If you genuinely believe TWAW you will likely need to examine and rearrange your whole 'belief system' as it were, your concept of people and who they fundamentally are and what sex is. I don't think a lot of people have done this.

I think when most people say TWAW, they mean 'we should treat TW as if they were biological women, in every/nearly every circumstance' (depending on whether they recognise TW bodies are different e.g. they won't need maternity services).

I think the PP who mentioned that it's an issue of privilege probably got it right. Before your sexed female body really does the dirty on you, you're far more inclined to be "kind" and swallow the status quo.

I was pretty clueless about the full implications of the limitations placed on women by their biology until I started a family.

My husband and I had kids with the idea that we were in an equal partnership - but it was me that was temporarily disabled by SPD, suffered miscarriages, difficult births, PTSD, breastfeeding and ultimately fucked my career over by breeding. He got a few sleepless nights and kissed goodbye to his weekends. That's biology - and it's why we need feminism.

As a privileged, white, middle class young woman, I just didn't really get it.

I do now!

I was confused about how the hell this all happened -and helped me understand AGP

Have you seen some of the examples in this thread - amidst all the humour there is an eye-opening number of accounts of people using predominantly female groups or classes in this way (yoga etc.):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4186758-arseholes-who-ve-ruined-groups-and-hobbies?

[quote Nettersrunboulder86]@Doyoumind do you have a link to the Twitter thread. I’m seeing a lot of that on SM and I’m interested to see the stats[/quote]
It's one that a couple of people have mentioned on the thread.

Channel 4 did a fact check article a while ago which is a good place to get some basic stats.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

kareningalasmith.com/2019/10/17/comparing-uk-homicide-perpetration-and-suspect-rates-for-male-female-and-trans-people-april-2007-march-2018/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3080711-UK-transgender-murder-rate

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Caitlin Moran has just apologised to transwomen for not centering them in her (emotional, heartfelt, scared) tweets yesterday.

@WendyTestaburger

Caitlin Moran has just apologised to transwomen for not centering them in her (emotional, heartfelt, scared) tweets yesterday.

Please share!

Caitlin Moran isn't my cup of tea in the first place. Funny to see she's throwing women under the bus. I can't be doing with people who delete what they've said or grovel after the fact. It's just more of "I'm not one of the bad guys!"

Why shouldn’t men have the right to dress as they please and look after themselves, why does society dictate they can’t do this and that it is just the right of women? . How else can they express themselves and look nice without others calling them women ( think how many manly men in the 90s loved bright ties and socks by way of expression ) The conclusion of this whole ideology seems to have been made within the narrow confines of ‘today’s’ subjective reality rather than within the context of reality. This suppression of men’s ability to dress as they please is a recent historical phenomenon. It doesn’t exist in nature or even seem to exist ‘primitive’ cultures.

It doesn’t mean TW are actually females though. Maybe we help men redefine what it means to be masculine, which doesn’t mean they have to go to the absurdity of changing sex. At least then we will have a better chance of defending our sex based

They also seem to think feminism is some catch-all dustbin for every 'identity' and 'marginalised movement' rather than something that is by women for women.

Oh God yes this - I am SO SICK AND TIRED of having to accept all comers to the tribe of Feminism. I want it for me, for adult human females who have XX chromosomes. The women the suffragettes were talking about. Every one else can start their OWN movement.

”Anyone presenting or identifying as female is equally at risk, and trans women are fundamentally -more- at risk as data shows.”

Yet when you ask to see the supposed data, you never get an answer — naturally, since it’s not true. But obviously none of these educated people have ever bothered to look up the easily available information. Or worse, they know it’s a lie, and they willingly repeat it.

”the real issue is that cis women are prioritising their own safety”

How wicked and selfish of us
Nice of him to tell us straight out how unimportant we are.

Thanks @EmbarrassingAdmissions and @Doyoumind

But the problem is all sides. I’m not a ‘feminist’ in that I don’t prescribe to a lot of the male bashing that goes on - it’s not done in my name but by virtue of being a woman it’s assumed all women agree with it. I was struck when I watched Mrs America on why Philiys Schlafly fought against women’s rights . Now I see things from her perspective . No one asked all those women across the country if they agreed or bothered to understand their views and as a consequence they couldn’t hear the message or how the reforms would help them so fought it. This happens time and time again across all walks of life and in business. Apportioning blame is not the answer either. That’s why listening to all sides of the debate and soliciting the views of all stakeholders is so important and so is being adult to accept the majority consensus if the vote goes against you especially if you were part of the process , which doesn’t seem to be in the pysche for many people. (Brext - we were all part of the process, outcome wasn’t as what we wanted but most of us accepted it, last nights Scottish Parliament decision - women not part or the process hence they have every right to fight it tooth and nail)

On a positive note though, women are better at mobilising themselves and ‘fighting’ for what they wanted in a peaceful way, which for change to be successful and long lasting is the only way.

If you think that the voices of women are being heard you haven't fully understood the reasons behind much of the current actions. Look up the various female academics who have been threatened, had their office doors pissed on, their jobs out at risk.

And if you see threads as being generally man hating you have missed the nuances. Violent men yes. But as I share my life, my home, my bed with a man it would be ridiculous to suggest that, when I rail about male behaviour I mean all men, all the time.

There is a big difference between women saying no, and the actions of some men (and women) trying to stop them being heard.

Follow the violence.... you'll see it then!

But obviously none of these educated people have ever bothered to look up the easily available information. Or worse, they know it’s a lie, and they willingly repeat it.

A recent video conversation with Glinner, Jane Clare Jones, Helen Staniland and Arty Morton included a discussion about what happened when someone who was asked to do some research for a university's Trans Day of Remembrance did conduct some relevant research from validated sources. The student's bafflement was apparently palpable when none of the claims about the death rate could be verified.

I apologise if that’s how it came across as that’s was not the sentiment.

It was merely to observe that those who promoted this ideology back the last century did so without thinking through the consequences or asking those they were fighting for if the ‘answer’ was correct. Now its becoming apparent that it wasn’t and in fact it’s made things worse.

I admit I'm ignorant on this topic and find these threads valuable in educating me. I realise that I’ve benefited enormously from the actions of the many brave women and men who have fought and continue to fight for me and my daughters today and I will support them and do what I can, but it’s a shame that it’s now about damage limitation rather than addressing the very real dangers that many men continue to pose to us today.

I’m not a ‘feminist’ in that I don’t prescribe to a lot of the male bashing that goes on - it’s not done in my name but by virtue of being a woman it’s assumed all women agree with it.
But male bashing isn't part of feminism?! Like many feminists I have sons, a husband - if I thought men were irredeemably bad I wouldn't bother fighting for them. Patriarchal society is bad for both sexes. I don't think you have a clear idea what feminism is.

but it’s a shame that it’s now about damage limitation rather than addressing the very real dangers that many men continue to pose to us today. What do you mean by damage limitation?

Feeling quite ill seeing how quickly talking about male violence against women has descended into endless lies about how transwomen are most at risk. The cognitive dissonance and indeed hypocrisy is just enraging.