The cognitive dissonance from 'TWAW' women

[CheeryTreeBlossom]

I've seen a few things today on social media which got me thinking: How do "liberal" feminists square up the argument that being a women is a feeling vs the experience we all know?

1. The awful disappearance of Sarah Everard has led to an outpouring on twitter of women highlighting how they are essentially bound by a curfew all the time (and not just when the police "helpfully suggest" it) and feel the fear of being followed/harassed/assaulted by men in public constantly.

2. Kamala Harris posted a video on Instagram about the 2.5million women how have left the workforce in the US (similar stats on Guardian about the UK) and it's driven by women being in lower paid work and not having access to childcare when schools close.

3. This scene from Fleabag appeared on my Facebook feed where Kristin Scott Thomas gives a powerful speech about how women are constantly affected by their bodies through the start of menstruation to menopause. Lots of positive articles from the time it aired:
   www.refinery29.com/en-gb/fleabag-season-2-episode-3

And yet these same women would call others bigots for saying biology matters and instead that feelings are more important to being a woman than anything else?
That to dislike finding myself in an enclosed public space with someone visibly male is phobic, and that our reproductively system has a huge impact in our lives and why women are still discriminated against?

Argh. I'm just sick of being the only one in my friends group that seems to see the hypocrisy.
They say JKR is a nasty transphobe but equally complain about the patriarchy and how childcare costs put women put of work

Select the correct answer, using as reference 4 million years of hominid evolution as reference for your answer

A) Man wants to look pretty and wear nice clothes and face paint therefore man must be female

B) Man want to look pretty and wear nice clothes and face paint therefore societal norms must be wrong as it is in fact normal

Warning if you chose the wrong answer you’ll be even more screwed than you were when you were just fighting straightforward misogyny and male aggression

@bravebananabadge

Yes Helen Lewis does get a lot of stick for her feminist writing.
Her interview on Woman's Hour a year or so ago about TW was pretty interesting -very thought through and nuanced. It was meant to be a debate with someone from stonewall but of course they wouldn't actually have a conversation with her so it was separate interviews.

I expect I would be described as a 'lib fem' up until a few years ago. I think having children has a huge visceral, earth shattering effect on women's lives. So that might be part of it.

But thinking back ... it wasn't that I rejected sex-based rights as important, it just wasn't on my radar. I did think feminism should include males (I still think equity will and would benefit everyone) and I'd arrived at that conclusion from a humanist point of view.

I thought various other issues were very important - more abstract things like how women are seen, treated, published, viewed, etc. I think I had a more abstract kind of feminism, in fact. All to do with fairness, theories, musings and not much to do with real life, statistics, shitty nappies, ob-gyns and domestic violence.

I think I compartmentalised. I knew dv and abuse were issues, but I didn't really connect them with feminism (I know, I know). It's only been from reading rad fem stuff on here that I've started to see a huge (and rather horrible if I'm honest) underlying truth to how misogynist and anti-woman the world is, and how that is connected to so many issues.

The fantastically intelligent, challenging, thoughtful and knowledgeable women on MN have provided an incredible introduction to the breadth and depth of feminist thought - an object lesson, often, in how to tackle misogyny.

These days I find it very hard to understand how any feminist could still square TWAW with the glaring in-your-face daily reminders of TRAs, queer theory, gender ideology, etc.

But cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing. Compartmentalisation, ditto. And denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

@notyourhandmaid

Feeling quite ill seeing how quickly talking about male violence against women has descended into endless lies about how transwomen are most at risk. The cognitive dissonance and indeed hypocrisy is just enraging.

Yes, I think this is almost a form of masochism.

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.

You don't automatically become less scared because you were born male.

I don't understand your point.

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.
Why would you think that? It's not true.

@RootyT00t

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.

You don't automatically become less scared because you were born male.

I don't understand your point.

Because ONS data.

Because statistics.

Because you aren't reading what is written in good faith.

Men are at risk from male violence

Women are at risk from male violence

Men are more violent than women

Transwomen are male

@RootyT00t

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.

You don't automatically become less scared because you were born male.

I don't understand your point.

You're just making stuff up.

@ArabellaScott

I expect I would be described as a 'lib fem' up until a few years ago. I think having children has a huge visceral, earth shattering effect on women's lives. So that might be part of it.

But thinking back ... it wasn't that I rejected sex-based rights as important, it just wasn't on my radar. I did think feminism should include males (I still think equity will and would benefit everyone) and I'd arrived at that conclusion from a humanist point of view.

I thought various other issues were very important - more abstract things like how women are seen, treated, published, viewed, etc. I think I had a more abstract kind of feminism, in fact. All to do with fairness, theories, musings and not much to do with real life, statistics, shitty nappies, ob-gyns and domestic violence.

I think I compartmentalised. I knew dv and abuse were issues, but I didn't really connect them with feminism (I know, I know). It's only been from reading rad fem stuff on here that I've started to see a huge (and rather horrible if I'm honest) underlying truth to how misogynist and anti-woman the world is, and how that is connected to so many issues.

The fantastically intelligent, challenging, thoughtful and knowledgeable women on MN have provided an incredible introduction to the breadth and depth of feminist thought - an object lesson, often, in how to tackle misogyny.

These days I find it very hard to understand how any feminist could still square TWAW with the glaring in-your-face daily reminders of TRAs, queer theory, gender ideology, etc.

But cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing. Compartmentalisation, ditto. And denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Well said, that sums it up for me in my teens and twenties. Then the realities of adulthood (jobs, relationships, children) pretty much hammered home that equality between the sexes does not exist in our society. Not yet at least.

And Feminism became a much more concrete subject for me, especially as my children grew up and have bought into gender ideology :/

I agree with you too Arabella and I've said it on here many times before. If I were in my 20s now I would almost certainly be naively in the other camp.

It was a gradual realisation from my late 20s, as I saw and experienced discrimination at work, then later when I became a mother, was in and then left an abusive relationship and became a single mum and tried to maintain a career that things changed. I also looked back and fully understood some of the other things that had happened in my life and viewed them differently.

I have arrived at this point in my 40s where my 'lived experience' confirms just how unequal we are. Older women are dismissed. It's really infuriating. But I remember being dismissive myself

@RootyT00t

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.

You don't automatically become less scared because you were born male.

I don't understand your point.

This is not true. This is insultingly untrue.

Is a transwoman physically weaker than a male assailant? No.

Is a transwoman at risk of being impregnated after a rape? No.

Has a transwoman grown up with the victim-blaming narratives that women have? No.

Stop lying. If transwomen imagine they are 'just as at risk', they are mistaken. Telling any group that they are in a special danger when they are not is horrible.

Notyourhandmaid, I never said they are at special risk.

What is horrible is deciding transwomen are at no risk because they can't get pregnant and didn't grow up with the narratives. (I'm surprised at your audacity to say trans don't have victim blaming, that's all they get! Blame, sneering, and criticism!)

A transwoman could be weaker than a male assailant. How on earth would you know that?

@Gerla

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases. Why would you think that? It's not true.

So they don't get attacked cause the men say oh sorry, you're trans! How silly of me. I must find a biological woman.

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.

False.

Why do TRAs constantly, wilfully misunderstand the idea of certain risks only applying to women? It doesn't mean 'all women risk this' but it does mean 'only women are at risk for this'.

Why do TRAs pretend that male strength is not present within transwomen, when science (and common sense) indicates it is?

Seeing your DARVO-ing, dude, and not buying it.

@RootyT00t

Also, notyour, there are many women who can't get pregnant after a rape. Let's not continue with that offensive narrative.

Ye gods!

Are there no depths you will not plumb?

As a woman who couldn’t get pregnant if she was raped, it appears not Samphire!

I can’t get pregnant because I don’t have any Fallopian tubes which is nothing like I can’t get pregnant because I’m a man

I remember the “are we the baddies?” thread from a few weeks ago. I doubt TRA ever stop & ask themselves that question whilst at the same time stomping all over threads about violence inflicted on women to make it about them

@RootyT00t

Also, notyour, there are many women who can't get pregnant after a rape. Let's not continue with that offensive narrative.

I don't know who you are.

I'm going to try asking, politely, that you please stop using "pregnancy after rape" in any of your arguments against women. I'm guessing it's not something you have experienced. It's not semantics for some of us. It's is real, lived, terrifying experience.

For anyone interested psychologist Dr Jessica Taylor has started a new organisation MOCRA - Mothers of children conceived in rape and abuse.

www.mocra-foundation.com/support-services

To answer the questions which appeared to have popped up -

I was not the PP who said that woman are more at risk because they can get pregnant after a rape.

I was reminding said PP that that is a disgusting phrase in itself that shouldn't be used in this type of argument.

That doesn't mean Wendy, that it can't happen.

I wasn't the one who used it.

So why curious and Wendy have decided to jump on me I don't know. The deliberate misunderstanding of my very obvious point , (which was clearly NOT oh it's okay because all women don't get pregnant ) is only down to my viewpoint which immediately puts me in TRA category.

These are not echo chambers.

Interestingly enough I saw a post this morning from a man detailing how he changes his behaviour on his daily travels to make sure women know he is not a risk. This is what people are calling men to do after rubbishing the not all men campaign.

I assume people are perfectly OK with men having to change everything they do on a daily basis, due to the actions of some men? I assume it's OK to have to do that as long as you're not female?

I'm not a TRA, despite the goading every time I'm around. I just don't agree with some of you, and despite your beliefs on here, that is allowed.

@Biscuitsanddoombar

As a woman who couldn’t get pregnant if she was raped, it appears not Samphire!

I can’t get pregnant because I don’t have any Fallopian tubes which is nothing like I can’t get pregnant because I’m a man

I remember the “are we the baddies?” thread from a few weeks ago. I doubt TRA ever stop & ask themselves that question whilst at the same time stomping all over threads about violence inflicted on women to make it about them

But biscuits, this is precisely my point.

Using the 'trans can't get pregnant argument ' as an excuse as to why they're less at risk and therefore who cares about them and we should only worry about biological women, is surely offensive to biological women who also can't get pregnant!

If you guys choose to believe I meant that on a malicious way, that's your choice. I think that says more about you guys than me, and it's such a preposterous and frankly vile agenda that I don't feel the need to defend myself (as you also know nothing about my own fertility, thanks.)

Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.

Still completely untrue.

I can't get my head round the twisting and contorting it takes to carry in with that line!

It requires deliberate misunderstanding and misstatements about what has been posted.

A concerted effort to negate all of the biology, physiology based differences between the sexes and a total willingness to accept that TWAW, whilst throwing transmen under the TRA bus as collateral damage!

These days I find it very hard to understand how any feminist could still square TWAW with the glaring in-your-face daily reminders of TRAs, queer theory, gender ideology, etc.

But cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing. Compartmentalisation, ditto. And denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

I completely agree. It's the devoted zealotry to this anti-feminist cause that shocks me. I can understand submitting. The constant demonstration of how misogynistic the ideology is and what will happen if you speak against it. But I guess it's a way of proving that you're "not like the other girls" as it were.

Look at Sian Berry of the Greens, weeping tears of joy that a motion calling for sex based rights to be recognised alongside gender identity was defeated.

no Rooty the weaponising of infertile women and twisting it to equate to it being somehow like a TW inability to get pregnant is utterly and completely offensive

TW are less at risk because they are male and have male biology otherwise they would be 'women'