The cognitive dissonance from 'TWAW' women

[CheeryTreeBlossom]

I've seen a few things today on social media which got me thinking: How do "liberal" feminists square up the argument that being a women is a feeling vs the experience we all know?

1. The awful disappearance of Sarah Everard has led to an outpouring on twitter of women highlighting how they are essentially bound by a curfew all the time (and not just when the police "helpfully suggest" it) and feel the fear of being followed/harassed/assaulted by men in public constantly.

2. Kamala Harris posted a video on Instagram about the 2.5million women how have left the workforce in the US (similar stats on Guardian about the UK) and it's driven by women being in lower paid work and not having access to childcare when schools close.

3. This scene from Fleabag appeared on my Facebook feed where Kristin Scott Thomas gives a powerful speech about how women are constantly affected by their bodies through the start of menstruation to menopause. Lots of positive articles from the time it aired:
   www.refinery29.com/en-gb/fleabag-season-2-episode-3

And yet these same women would call others bigots for saying biology matters and instead that feelings are more important to being a woman than anything else?
That to dislike finding myself in an enclosed public space with someone visibly male is phobic, and that our reproductively system has a huge impact in our lives and why women are still discriminated against?

Argh. I'm just sick of being the only one in my friends group that seems to see the hypocrisy.
They say JKR is a nasty transphobe but equally complain about the patriarchy and how childcare costs put women put of work

Sometimes when I'm having one of those parenting days I idly muse whether as mums we should embrace the ideology so much that our darling children feel they must rebel against it now it's so boring and dull that even their mums are declaring themselves non-binary and declaring their pronouns to all their friends whenever they bring them round (in the future, of course!).

But then I remember that saying "fine, sit on your arse and play xbox all day then" gets listened to just fine and maybe my reverse psychology is a bad idea

DickKerrLadies how about modifying the Xbox approach slightly?

Tell them that they can play and insist that you and one or two friends are allowed to join.

Then use any chat function excessively and make sure to incorporate as much “lingo” as possible. Bonus points for doing it badly.

That might do the trick....

I nearly fell out with my closest female relative about this. I brought up how upset I was about JKR at the peak of the death threats (which I'd have thought anyone would condemn regardless of what they thought she'd said). Relative is full TWAW to the point we had to agree not to talk about it or risk a major falling out. She thought every risk I was worried about (which to be clear, IMO, is predatory men taking advantage of relaxed safeguarding) was theoretical.

She's left wing, early 30s, not had kids or close friends with kids yet, not experienced obvious discrimination or harassment, is well-off, isn't on twitter and is straight. So I just think she won't see it until she experiences it.

The consumerist angle is often under-addressed here. Many women, usually liberal and middle class, buy in (literally) to what it means to a women in modern society which is feminine. They claim its empowering and enjoyable. Products and services, sometimes painful and expensive, are sold rapaciously to them. (They are also quite often 'bodi-posi, ironically!) If a man is also buying and doing these things, he must be a woman, right?

This is the main reason why radfems had it right from the start, IMO. We know eyeliner and leg waxing are just steroetypes.

Like the whole Bruce Jenner thing a few years back - they bizarrely bestow some sort of unearned "worthiness" or "goodness" to men who want to become women.

Then they paint themselves into a corner where they have to apply this across the board or their whole premise falls apart.

Fast forward a few years and now they've really had to dig their heels in as the scope of what being a "trans woman" means grows ever wider (due to their own incoherence on the subject).

I'm waiting for the day the pendulum swings so far in the wrong direction that it swings back and smacks them in the face.

@Doyoumind do you have a link to the Twitter thread. I’m seeing a lot of that on SM and I’m interested to see the stats

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

A young academic who called herself a feminist recently tried to explain to me how she believed transwomen are women. She really tried, and I really tried to understand her reasoning. I’m sorry I can’t reproduce it here, because she never said I could catch hold of and follow properly.

I was taught long ago that if you can’t explain something, it’s because you don’t really understand it yourself. If it’s a religious belief, the believer just has to accept it without trying to explain the unexplainable.

I agree with this. There's an element of the religious about it. It's an ideology and they strictly adhere to it, even when their own parameters of womanhood widen to the point of the farcical.

Facts become irrelevant. Feelings are paramount. Two sides arguing facts against feelings are unlikely to get anywhere.

Agree with the reasons mentioned here.

Isn't it also that some women, especially those with media profiles, may not necessarily believe TWAW but they just chant the mantra so as not to get backlash? They are not even allowed to be silent about it. You see some women tying themselves in knots in apology if they've made even the slightest "mistake". It's painful to see.

It’s baffling, isn’t it? I belonged to a Facebook group, the membership of whom were generally quite educated people. I joined a discussion re. Intersectionality and gave my GC view, which was not well-received.

One poster commented that ‘literally thousands of TW are murdered every year, just because they’re trans.’ I questioned this ‘statistic’ as I didn’t believe it was true.

Indeed, after some research, I posted the following statistic for the previous year for the country we were in:

Number of transwomen killed: 0
Number of transwomen who killed people: 20.

I was called a TERF, sent hate mail then ultimately banned from the group.

My TWAW days were prompted by witnessing what I would have referred to as 'abuse' of a transwoman colleague on a night out. When I think about it in retrospect it was a few double takes and an unpleasant comment about their appearance.

Unnecessary and hurtful? Yes. Worse than what many women experience on a night out? No.

There was something about seeing a male presenting as a woman being subject to harassment (by other men of course, the females rallied round them) that triggered a horror and desire to bring them into our circle to protect them. Female socialisation, init.

I trained myself to 'see' them as a woman and female pronouns became automatic. I wouldn't have said they WERE a woman but I was able to pull off those mental gymnastics, they were a 'type' of woman.

Even at the time I found their treatment of their wife (from whom they had moved away and kept the transition secret, while maintaining a long distance relationships) troubling. But I wouldn't have blinked at them using the women's facilities - despite being a tall, 60-year-old, who had only just begun to transition.

@WarOnWomen

Agree with the reasons mentioned here.

Isn't it also that some women, especially those with media profiles, may not necessarily believe TWAW but they just chant the mantra so as not to get backlash? They are not even allowed to be silent about it. You see some women tying themselves in knots in apology if they've made even the slightest "mistake". It's painful to see.

Yep.

That's called "don't come after me, I'm one of the good guys."

But they will come after you. Eventually. At some point you'll slip up. You'll get tangled in their words. Or the parameters will shift again and you'll have missed the memo. You'll say the "wrong" thing and they'll come for you. Most of the ones who come after you will be posturing the same way you were and they'll be saying, "see, I'm on the right side. I fight the oppressors. Don't come after me, I'm one of the good guys."

which to be clear, IMO, is predatory men taking advantage of relaxed safeguarding
I see this opinion expressed a lot and I find it troubling. I don't think TW are predators but I do think they are human and just as likely to commit a crime as anyone else! It seems that we are always having to pit them in a separate category that can't be criticized. I don't think that helps anyone.

@Gerla

which to be clear, IMO, is predatory men taking advantage of relaxed safeguarding I see this opinion expressed a lot and I find it troubling. I don't think TW are predators but I do think they are human and just as likely to commit a crime as anyone else! It seems that we are always having to pit them in a separate category that can't be criticized. I don't think that helps anyone.

No, that's not what is being said. If we had self-id it would allow all men to access female only spaces and predators would not waste any time to take advantage of this.

Oh sorry, didn't read your post properly. Ignore me.

Agree with much of what's been said. The cognitive dissonance is shocking. And along thinkingaboutLangCleg 's line, if you can't explain it, how can you defend it?

I have an 18yr old daughter who recently announced she is trans, she cannot explain what she means when she says "she doesn't feel like a girl" (join the fucking adult world, it's not a feeling! I want to shout at her). Particularly difficult because she is in all other areas rational, scientific (ASD complicates things) and spurns woolly religious or non-fact based discourse

Instead of fighting against regressive stereotypes, this generation has wholesale bought into them - is this what our generation has done wrong? We have been so progressive in our lives, that the next generation has to rebel against us in this way? Bring on that pendulum to smack them in the face as it swings back.

"Anyone presenting or identifying as female is equally at risk, and trans women are fundamentally -more- at risk as data shows."

It shows nothing of the sort.

@Doyoumind I'd also be grateful for the link. I'd be really interested in seeing accurate stats on violence against women compared to violence against TW.

I can't get my head around it either. I feel extremely embarrassed for them to be honest. How can they not see how damaging this ideology is for women and girls? I think privilege plays some part. They are lucky I suppose not to think about the things some humans are capable of.

Glad I'm not the only one!
And yes as a left wing millennial I know it's not everyone but some days it feels like it. I am heartened by the sunlight that seems to be coming but then the next moment I see another set of pronouns in an email signature and I rage!

DH and I have discussed at length how it does seem to come bundled with a 'political' identity. As in, this is the list of acceptable opinions to have on the left (NHS yes, taxes higher, nuclear no, green yes, TWAW) and you don't critically dissect any of it. He works in a scientific organisation and has to keep quiet because his team and tbh most of the staff are vocally TWAW.
Considering themselves morally superior whilst spouting "punch a Tory/kill a terf".

I guess I'm hoping to figure out what is going to break the cognitive dissonance? Is it having kids? That's probably what did it for me but some of my friends won't be having them. Plus I don't think I ever believed the arguments, so I'm wondering if they're 'too far gone' to admit it.

I haven't brought this up yet with them yet because I don't think it's the sort of convo that will go well on WhatsApp or zoom, but lockdown lifting means we might meet up and if it comes up I don't know that I can just ignore it.

Let's hope some of them made the (not very difficult) intellectual leap. I suppose they'll want a fucking medal for it. Like they seem to want a medal for Not being a rapist with that #Notallmen shit.

@Truthlikeness

My TWAW days were prompted by witnessing what I would have referred to as 'abuse' of a transwoman colleague on a night out. When I think about it in retrospect it was a few double takes and an unpleasant comment about their appearance.

Unnecessary and hurtful? Yes. Worse than what many women experience on a night out? No.

There was something about seeing a male presenting as a woman being subject to harassment (by other men of course, the females rallied round them) that triggered a horror and desire to bring them into our circle to protect them. Female socialisation, init.

I trained myself to 'see' them as a woman and female pronouns became automatic. I wouldn't have said they WERE a woman but I was able to pull off those mental gymnastics, they were a 'type' of woman.

Even at the time I found their treatment of their wife (from whom they had moved away and kept the transition secret, while maintaining a long distance relationships) troubling. But I wouldn't have blinked at them using the women's facilities - despite being a tall, 60-year-old, who had only just begun to transition.

Your post really resonated with me. I've had a similar, but different, experience with gay men.

One thing that really woke me up was being groped by a gay male friend. It really snapped me into realising that there is no "safe" category of male. Some males simply see women as objects and lesser humans. Regardless of personality, sexuality, identity, or position.

I don't really understand it tbh. I came across a thread on Sarah Everard on twitter this morning.
Part of it descended into the usual arguments about trans issues but the man actually posted as a response that "..the real issue is that cis women are prioritising their own safety..."
I was actually really shocked by it.
I mean I know that some men really don't care about women's safety but I guess the blatancy of it still took me by surprise.

There's definitely a tendency for women to feel sorry for men who are bullied or pushed out of male spaces, and so the women feel they should automatically welcome these men into their own groups or spaces.
Some men clearly see this weakness and are happy to exploit it by then dominating women's spaces once they are allowed to be a part of it.

It's a shame these women feel more for men than other women who are uncomfortable with men being allowed into female groups and spaces.

I agree with a lot of the points made already, particularly around "being kind" and political identity.

I also think there might be something about some liberal people not knowing how to cope with a clash of rights. As a liberal left-wing progressive, you have a clear idea of who the "goodies" and the "baddies" are (homophobia = bad, gay rights = good). But here we have two "oppressed" groups with a clash of interests. And in those cases, you need to be able to critically analyse the arguments and issues at play. Mantras aren't going to wash. That's where the cognitive dissonance comes in: "Feminism good! Oh, but hang on trans rights good too...erm..."

GC feminists get described as "trans exclusionary" but it's clear that many of us here have sympathy with trans people, and are concerned for their safety and wellbeing, even if we don't always understand their motivations, or agree with their worldview. It could have gone very differently if TRAs hadn't decided that trans rights trump women's rights in such a definite and brutal way.