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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do you think of Andy Ngo?

316 replies

ThroughTheBarsOfARhyme · 10/03/2021 21:12

This is a bit of a tenuous link to feminism, it’s probably more about free speech, but I saw that a member of Mumford & Sons was criticised for praising his book (about antifa) and that his book had previously been banned from Amazon. It seems a bit like TRA tactics and a similar response to Abigail Shrier’s book. I’ve just bought his book to read but I was interested in other’s opinions of him and/or the book. Is he speaking the truth and people are trying to suppress it (similar with feminists) or is he exaggerating and not someone to praise?
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/mumford-sons-winston-marshall-taking-time-to-examine-blindspots-after-praising-andy-ngos-unmasked-book-12241592

I appreciate this really isn’t feminism so I will ask for it to be moved if people think it should be.

OP posts:
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jj1968 · 13/03/2021 19:11

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No the Suffragettes sent letter bombs and set fire to people's homes. Interesting to know you would have been one of the ones condemning them though.

No, I just don't support unprovoked violence against people. I'm not sure why you find that hard to understand. I would have fully supported the cause. Had I been around in 1918 maybe I would have felt differently. In Portland today though, I don't support either the right wing or the left wing thugs. They're just rentamob.

So you would have supported the cause but also presumably also the jail sentences and opposed the strategy of the WSPU

"Other prominent opponents of women's suffrage also saw their homes destroyed by fire and incendiary devices, sometimes as a response to police raids on WSPU offices.[62] Relatives of politicians also saw their houses attacked: the Mill House near Liphook, Hampshire was burned because the owner was Reginald McKenna's brother Theodore, while a bomb was set off in a house in Moor Hall Green, Birmingham, as the property was owned by Arthur Chamberlain, brother of Conservative politican Joseph Chamberlain (father to future Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain).[63][64] Houses were also attacked in Doncaster. After some suffragettes were thrown out of a political meeting there in June 1913, the house of the man who had thrown them out was burned down.[65] In response to such actions, angry mobs often attacked WSPU meetings, such as in May 1913 when 1,000 people attacked a WSPU meeting in Doncaster.[66] In retaliation, suffragettes burned down more properties in the local area.[66]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

It must horrify you to see gender critical activists draped in their flag. This dwarfs anything ever done by antifa.

Had I been around in 1918 maybe I would have felt differently.

I suspect this is closer to the truth. The police killing black people, the Trump presidency and growth of the far right in the US doesn't affect you personally. Perhaps had you been black and poor and around in the US in 2020 you might have felt differently.

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 19:22

@RedDogsBeg

Are you saying it's not okay to attack unarmed civillians (and that's hardly a mainstream BLM or antifa tactic)

Hardly a mainstream antifa tactic, okay then, I ask you again jj what had the women who had been trafficked into prostitution and pornography and ultimately escaped done to deserve being attacked by antifa flag waving thugs in Paris last Sunday?

I can only see one flag in those videos posted, it looks like an antifa flag but it's difficult to say and someone appears to be trying to snatch it off the person who was waving it. This leads me to think there may be more to this 'attack' then has been presented. It certainly doesn't seem to have been an antifa protest though, it looks like a clash between feminists with different views on sex work to me.
RedDogsBeg · 13/03/2021 19:37

and there we go jj1968 once again minimises violence and abuse directed towards women.

LangClegsInSpace · 13/03/2021 19:44

With all this emphasis on purity I'm amazed jj and hibari haven't bothered to distance themselves from Arun Gupta, the author of the article jj posted earlier.

jj said it was 'well worth reading'

I provided you all the information you need to do your due diligence.

Here's my earlier post:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4188655-What-do-you-think-of-Andy-Ngo?msgid=105509538

As you will see I have had the common decency to provide a link, verbatim quotes and screenshots to back up my strong opinion that Arun Gupta is a complete arsehole.

I dunno, maybe that's just what 'side' those posters are genuinely on Confused

Or maybe those posters do know and accept that '... you don't have to endorse someones whole stance or like them as a person, to agree with the merit of some of the things they say and liking someone or thinking they are good doesn't mean they are correct.' - as AdHominemNonSequitur said earlier.

The question then is - why do they have one standard for themselves but another for their opponents?

My book's arrived Smile

Shall I read it or burn it? Did the nazi evidence ever show up?

LangClegsInSpace · 13/03/2021 19:53

Yeah it must be those women's own fault somehow, mustn't it jj?

Maybe they should have just stayed at home and kept themselves safe.

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 20:13

@LangClegsInSpace

Yeah it must be those women's own fault somehow, mustn't it jj?

Maybe they should have just stayed at home and kept themselves safe.

Is that what I said? It looks like both groups were predominantly made of up of women. I'd like to hear both sides.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/03/2021 21:02

I suspect this is closer to the truth. The police killing black people, the Trump presidency and growth of the far right in the US doesn't affect you personally. Perhaps had you been black and poor and around in the US in 2020 you might have felt differently.

I'm not talking about black poor people. I'm mostly talking about white people with silly hair who seem to constitute quite a considerable part of Antifa and all these movements you personally champion. I'm not sure why you think it's so odd that I don't support unprovoked violent attacks on civilians. It's kind of normal behaviour.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/03/2021 21:14

Earlier you accused someone of being a 'literal nazi'. That's a serious accusation.

It's a ridiculous accusation, unless we're in 1930s Germany.

BilboBercow · 13/03/2021 21:17

I think he's a bit of a cunt and definitely not an ally.
I disagree with violence against cunts as much as violence against anyone else.
I think a pro alt right thread on FWR is a bad look for us but I'm pro free speech so carry on.

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 21:27

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I suspect this is closer to the truth. The police killing black people, the Trump presidency and growth of the far right in the US doesn't affect you personally. Perhaps had you been black and poor and around in the US in 2020 you might have felt differently.

I'm not talking about black poor people. I'm mostly talking about white people with silly hair who seem to constitute quite a considerable part of Antifa and all these movements you personally champion. I'm not sure why you think it's so odd that I don't support unprovoked violent attacks on civilians. It's kind of normal behaviour.

The BLM movement was overwhelmingly black people, antifa, as much as it exists as a tangible thing, only played a minimal role. I think you've spent too long listening to Trump and the likes of Andy Ngo.
LangClegsInSpace · 13/03/2021 21:29

It looks like both groups were predominantly made of up of women.

How do you know? You had enough trouble making out the great big antifa flag but could somehow read their pronoun badges?

I'd like to hear both sides.

Are we allowed to hear both sides now? That's fantastic! I can read my new book with a clear conscience.

Any comment on your mate Mr Gupta?

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 21:31

Any comment on your mate Mr Gupta?

I don't think the fact a journalist comes across as a bit of a dick on twitter invalidates their published work. I think most journalists come across as a bit of a dick on twitter.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/03/2021 21:37

How do you know? You had enough trouble making out the great big antifa flag but could somehow read their pronoun badges?

Grin
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/03/2021 21:38

I think you've spent too long listening to Trump and the likes of Andy Ngo.

I haven't spent any time listening to Trump and Andy Ngo.

LangClegsInSpace · 13/03/2021 21:39

@BilboBercow

I think he's a bit of a cunt and definitely not an ally. I disagree with violence against cunts as much as violence against anyone else. I think a pro alt right thread on FWR is a bad look for us but I'm pro free speech so carry on.
It's not a 'pro alt right thread', it's a thread about whether Andy Ngo has anything interesting and informative to say about antifa.

I read loads of books by people I vehemently disagree with.

For example, one of the most useful books I have read in recent years has been Pressing Matters by Christine Burns. I found those two volumes incredibly informative.

StrangeLookingParasite · 13/03/2021 21:45

Same question to you. Would you have condemned the Suffragettes? Do you condemn the Stonewall riots as well for that matter?

Your continued defence of antifa, and the comparison to the Suffragettes is disgusting.
Antifa are a crow of rent-a thug cretins, interested in destruction, and only destruction. They have invaded many legitimate manifs here, then made them super violent - public bottle recycling bins tipped over, the bottles used as projectiles, then the broken glass reused, sharp stones, shop windows broken, atm's destroyed.
The protest that saw the water cannon outside my door, the broke the window and wrecked the awnings of the cafe across the road from me. Owned by a couple of guys, just a small business; Oh but they showed them, didn't they? Really stuck it to 'the man'.
They're also the reason I know what tear gas is like, as I said upthread, and you conveniently ignored. Don't tell me it's media spin, I have seen them, right up close and personal. My kid being locked down at school because that manif turned into a riot. By them.
They're scum. They have no aims at all. Just casseurs.

Get a fucking grip.

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 21:50

It's not a 'pro alt right thread', it's a thread about whether Andy Ngo has anything interesting and informative to say about antifa.

It's a thread of people apologising for alt-right poster boys like Ngo, claiming anti-fascists are a bigger threat to society than fascists, supporting the Heritage Foundation, saying Momentum equals cancer, calling critical race theory a dangerous extremist ideology and Trump style fearmongering about' anteefah'. Sounds pretty alt right to me.

aliasundercover · 13/03/2021 21:59

calling critical race theory a dangerous extremist ideology

Yeah, that’s unfair. It’s a laughable, stupid ideology. And no, can’t provide evidence for that because reality is a social construct, isn’t it?

JohnRokesmith · 13/03/2021 22:05

There is something deeply unsettling about the fetishisation of people who think they are left-wing. If you properly look at, say, the history of the campaign for female suffrage, you might actually see a complex series of events, in which ideas are contested, and concepts of suffrage are rearranged to allow women to vote. It takes a total of 58 years between the election of the first female politicians in 1870, and full female suffrage in England and Wales in 1928. That's not that long in terms of political change.

So, we have a significant political change, driven by the input of a lot of people, mostly involved in peaceful political campaigning. Those people, however, get their important contributions marginalised, and instead the people who only think that they are left-wing fixate on the small and terribly unproductive women who sent out bombs in what was arguably a counter-productive contribution to the cause.

And it is typically thus with violent protest. Some people who identify as being on the left love this, as it allows them to cast themselves and their movements as being freedom fighters, heroically sticking it to the man, and forcibly taking their freedoms from their oppressors. In reality, it's generally it's mostly just idiots taking an opportunity to punch others, and feel good about themselves afterwards.

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 22:08

@StrangeLookingParasite

Same question to you. Would you have condemned the Suffragettes? Do you condemn the Stonewall riots as well for that matter?

Your continued defence of antifa, and the comparison to the Suffragettes is disgusting.
Antifa are a crow of rent-a thug cretins, interested in destruction, and only destruction. They have invaded many legitimate manifs here, then made them super violent - public bottle recycling bins tipped over, the bottles used as projectiles, then the broken glass reused, sharp stones, shop windows broken, atm's destroyed.
The protest that saw the water cannon outside my door, the broke the window and wrecked the awnings of the cafe across the road from me. Owned by a couple of guys, just a small business; Oh but they showed them, didn't they? Really stuck it to 'the man'.
They're also the reason I know what tear gas is like, as I said upthread, and you conveniently ignored. Don't tell me it's media spin, I have seen them, right up close and personal. My kid being locked down at school because that manif turned into a riot. By them.
They're scum. They have no aims at all. Just casseurs.

Get a fucking grip.

I didn't know antifa had a water cannon.

I think the goal of preventing fascism in the US, and of structural racism and ending police violence against black people is as worthy as the Suffragette cause, whose violence incidentally was relentless for a number of years, highly targetted and killed 4 people. I don't agree with everything either group did, but there is no doubt that the violence of the Suffragettes was part of the story of women winning the vote and that violence carried out against fascists has been part of the story of preventing the spread of fascism.

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 22:17

@aliasundercover

calling critical race theory a dangerous extremist ideology

Yeah, that’s unfair. It’s a laughable, stupid ideology. And no, can’t provide evidence for that because reality is a social construct, isn’t it?

What specifically about critical race theory is laughable and stupid?
StrangeLookingParasite · 13/03/2021 22:17

I didn't know antifa had a water cannon.

What a dishonest and disingenuous thing to say.
I am entiely not surprised.

You are still refusing to acknowledge that for at least those cretins calling themselves antifa here, there is no goal, there are no lofty political aims, just wrecking things mindlessly, violence, broken glass, throwing stones.

You really don't have a clue.

jj1968 · 13/03/2021 22:25

@StrangeLookingParasite

I didn't know antifa had a water cannon.

What a dishonest and disingenuous thing to say.
I am entiely not surprised.

You are still refusing to acknowledge that for at least those cretins calling themselves antifa here, there is no goal, there are no lofty political aims, just wrecking things mindlessly, violence, broken glass, throwing stones.

You really don't have a clue.

The goal is anti-fascism surely. There may be other groups, some of whom may share supporters with antifa whose goals are anti-capitalism, or anti-police and engage in physical confrontation on that basis but that doesn't mean they are antifa.
JohnRokesmith · 13/03/2021 22:30

What specifically about critical race theory is laughable and stupid?

A very basic issue (and I'm not even going so far here as to call it stupid) is that it conflates between group difference and within group difference, which is a fairly straightforward flaw in statistical analysis. It also conflates class analysis with individual experience. The end result is that you get superficially meaningful conclusions based on a foundation of sand.

JohnRokesmith · 13/03/2021 22:33

The goal is anti-fascism surely. There may be other groups, some of whom may share supporters with antifa whose goals are anti-capitalism, or anti-police and engage in physical confrontation on that basis but that doesn't mean they are antifa.

Unless they have travelled in time back to the 1930s, they are not actually fighting any fascists. So, it is reasonable to ask as to whom they are actually targeting and why.