Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

If being trans is all about gender stereotypes, how could trans girls who are tomboys exist?

Could you clarify what you actually mean here?

Op could you please answer how you define a trans child please? I’m
Not clear on when/how a child becomes defined as trans and would be interested to hear your thoughts.

If being trans is all about gender stereotypes, how could trans girls who are tomboys exist? Why would Charlie Martin be a Racing Driver? Why would Fallon Fox be a martial artist? Why would a close trans friend of mine be a butch lesbian?

You realise that the regular posters on this board are all about demolishing gender stereotypes? Don't you?

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

And prescribing affirmation only treatment can result in people being set onto lifetime and life shortening medicalisation. And for females, many of the effects of that medicalisation is not reversible?

Do you have any research into how many children and teenagers will 'desist' if given time and/or treatment for underlying mental health issues?

And have you seen the recent papers from UK clinicians that point out that some of the statistics you have posted are actually not helped at all by transitioning?

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body.

Allowing a child to be put on hormones to stop a natural process, then staying on hormones for the rest of their lives, will also 'alter' their body in a non reversible way. To me, that is conversion therapy.

Why would Fallon Fox be a martial artist?

I know the answer to this one. Because Fox likes beating up women.

If being trans is all about gender stereotypes, how could trans girls who are tomboys exist? Why would Charlie Martin be a Racing Driver? Why would Fallon Fox be a martial artist? Why would a close trans friend of mine be a butch lesbian?

What's your answer to this Shizuku?

And if being trans isn't about gender stereotypes, what is it about?

@Shizuku

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

Puberty makes a child into an adult. Is there any particular reason you think it would be a good idea if some children didn't become adults?

And if being trans isn't about gender stereotypes, what is it about?

I'm really hoping Shizuku will come back and answer this to enhance my knowledge and understanding...

If being trans is all about gender stereotypes, how could trans girls who are tomboys exist? Why would Charlie Martin be a Racing Driver? Why would Fallon Fox be a martial artist? Why would a close trans friend of mine be a butch lesbian?

I am surprised that people would think being trans is just about stereotypes in a forum where trans people are discussed so extensively.

OP, you post here with this like you haven't read any of our posts here, in this thread you started, or the thoughts of women anywhere else on this site.

I don't believe in gender stereotyping. No gender critical women I know believe in gender stereotyping. The people who believe in gender stereotyping are generally the gender ideologues, the ones who say that some things are for girls and some for boys, so I suggest you direct this question to them.

As for Fallon Fox, well, I am entirely unsurprised that someone born male should take such unadulterated glee in severely harming a young woman.

@Erkrie

And if being trans isn't about gender stereotypes, what is it about?

I'm really hoping Shizuku will come back and answer this to enhance my knowledge and understanding...

If you can clearly see that there are lots of trans women who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and the doctors who work with trans kids tell you that there are plenty of trans girls who are tomboys, then at the very least you have learnt that your ideas about what it means to be trans are wrong.

I advise you to start listening to what trans people actually say rather than the misconceptions and opinions some cis people have about trans people.

And it's no good deferring to the tiny number of "GC" people who claim to be trans and who almost all other trans people will tell you do not represent their experience.

@Shizuku

If being trans is all about gender stereotypes, how could trans girls who are tomboys exist? Why would Charlie Martin be a Racing Driver? Why would Fallon Fox be a martial artist? Why would a close trans friend of mine be a butch lesbian?

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

I am surprised that people would think being trans is just about stereotypes in a forum where trans people are discussed so extensively.

From the article: “For instance, a child with a penis assigned a boy at birth who has come out as and is living as a girl.” What does that mean? How does a boy live as a girl? how does a boy realise they’re a girl? How do 3 yr olds (the youngest age included) understand this? How do they do all this without resorting to gender stereotypes?

@Helleofabore

If being trans is all about gender stereotypes, how could trans girls who are tomboys exist? Why would Charlie Martin be a Racing Driver? Why would Fallon Fox be a martial artist? Why would a close trans friend of mine be a butch lesbian?

You realise that the regular posters on this board are all about demolishing gender stereotypes? Don't you?

Good - so you'll be pleased to know that being trans isn't about gender stereotypes.

And @Shizuku - you haven't actually engaged with the point that I and many others have raised here, that if you are talking about conversion therapy, you need to start with the "conversion" (newsflash: it doesn't work) of gay young people to "straight", via the medium of "transition".

Until you start having a conversation, and not just throwing dubious "facts" at us, then I will struggle to believe you have come here to talk in good faith.

For instance, a child with a penis assigned a boy at birth who has come out as and is living as a girl.”
What does that mean? How does a boy live as a girl? how does a boy realise they’re a girl? How do 3 yr olds (the youngest age included) understand this?
How do they do all this without resorting to gender stereotypes?

I want an answer to this too.

@Helleofabore

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

And prescribing affirmation only treatment can result in people being set onto lifetime and life shortening medicalisation. And for females, many of the effects of that medicalisation is not reversible?

Do you have any research into how many children and teenagers will 'desist' if given time and/or treatment for underlying mental health issues?

And have you seen the recent papers from UK clinicians that point out that some of the statistics you have posted are actually not helped at all by transitioning?

This was tested in court in Australia:

blogs.rch.org.au/news/2017/11/30/kelvin-family-court-announcement/

"The Royal Children’s Hospital has received more than 130 patient referrals this year, and more than 700 since 2003. Of these, 96 per cent diagnosed with gender dysphoria continued to identify as transgender into late adolescence. No patient who commenced stage two treatment has sought to transition back to their birth sex."

So about 4%.

Do you know how many trans people regret not being able to transition when they were younger? It's about 90%

then at the very least you have learnt that your ideas about what it means to be trans are wrong.

But you're still unable to tell me what it is right? Why don't you seize the opportunity to educate us all?

I have this question. Which you haven't answered.

What is a woman?

@stuckinatrap

*For instance, a child with a penis assigned a boy at birth who has come out as and is living as a girl.” What does that mean? How does a boy live as a girl? how does a boy realise they’re a girl? How do 3 yr olds (the youngest age included) understand this? How do they do all this without resorting to gender stereotypes?*

I want an answer to this too.

Do more research. Watch documentaries about actual trans kids - see what they say about how they feel, and how they navigate the world.

Do more research. Watch documentaries about actual trans kids - see what they say about how they feel, and how they navigate the world.

Ah, so you don't know the answer either. That makes sense.

Should those who are uncomfortable with their body be given help to change it? No. I don't think so. I think they should get counselling and support to love who they are, not long for what they cannot become.

And where does it end? Diet pills for anorexics? Stomach stapling for bulimics?

And, if they persist (which rarely happens) from childhood then they should be able to access medical support when older but I don't believe the NHS should be funding it. Sorry. I think women have to fight for things which are being given far too freely.

Watch documentaries about actual trans kids

Actually, I have watched a few documentaries about so-called 'trans kids'. It's all about stereotypes.

I am heartily sick of being told to do more research by people who make claims and then stop engaging.

I am heartily sick of people being asked a question and responding with 'go and find out'

I started a thread on Sunday about the science of sex because people keep making assertions about sex being a spectrum backed by science and then promptly tell me to 'educate yourself' when I ask what science they are referring to.

The whole point of asking the question is that I want to understand.

So no. I asked you. I asked you because you're making assertions and now you are refusing to explain what you mean.

Heartily sick of having conversations like this.

@ArcheryAnnie

And *@Shizuku* - you haven't actually engaged with the point that I and many others have raised here, that if you are talking about conversion therapy, you need to start with the "conversion" (newsflash: it doesn't work) of gay young people to "straight", via the medium of "transition".

Until you start having a conversation, and not just throwing dubious "facts" at us, then I will struggle to believe you have come here to talk in good faith.

A trans person is typically attracted to the same people before and after transition, so there has been no conversion of their sexual orientation even if a different word is subsequently applied to that orientation.

Gay conversion is about trying to change who you are attracted to, so transition cannot be gay conversion.

@OldCrone

Watch documentaries about actual trans kids

Actually, I have watched a few documentaries about so-called 'trans kids'. It's all about stereotypes.

Then here's that article again which links to some science showing it isn't:

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

@stuckinatrap

I am heartily sick of being told to do more research by people who make claims and then stop engaging.

I am heartily sick of people being asked a question and responding with 'go and find out'

I started a thread on Sunday about the science of sex because people keep making assertions about sex being a spectrum backed by science and then promptly tell me to 'educate yourself' when I ask what science they are referring to.

The whole point of asking the question is that I want to understand.

So no. I asked you. I asked you because you're making assertions and now you are refusing to explain what you mean.

Heartily sick of having conversations like this.

The thing is that the information is all out there and readily available. You shouldn't expect strangers to do your leg work for you.