Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

@Shizuku

So would there be any agreement here that trying to convert a trans child to cis is likely to be harmful to that child?

There's no such thing as a trans child. There are gender nonconforming children (of which I was one) who are exploring their identities.

Trapping children into a trans identity with no other options risks conversion therapy of kids who would grow up gay, being made to conform to a "straight" identity.

@Shizuku

Attempting to change a child's gender identity is inherently harmful so trans people should be included in the ban on conversion therapy, unless you have some evidence that trans children are helped by someone trying to change their gender identity.

I didn't say that, what I did say is that often the gender identity is the bit you can see, just affirming that is not going to resolve any other issues if they are present.

Dealing with all the other shit is not trying to change their gender identity (it may naturally occur of course) it is trying to deal with things that if not dealt with will simply go with them into adulthood. It actually makes me really angry that people are almost actively campaigning that young people are offered a substandard service. Demand good care and there will be no need to have concerns about conversion therapy.

I don’t think people on here ever do advocate trying to convert a trans child to cis. They advocate giving a child space to understand that identity is a very complex and fluid concept, that there are many reasons they may be feeling as they are, and that lifelong alterations to their bodies, which will have impacts they cannot really process and use medication that has not been approved for the process, are not appropriate for children. Viewing that as conversion therapy is an extreme position.

So would there be any agreement here that trying to convert a trans child to cis is likely to be harmful to that child?
This reads like you think identity is immutable and intrinsic to people.
Whereas the reality is lots of peoples identity changes and develops at different times in their lives.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with helping people who are in emotional distress explore the causes of that distress and how it could relate to their identity. I wouldn't call that "conversion therapy " however there is a group of people who term anything other than affirmation as "conversion".
That's how we ended up with the Tavistock/Keira Bell debacle. Because healthcare experts were not able to do anything other than affirmation.

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

No such thing as trans children. There are distressed or dysphoric children and then there are trans adults.
Paediatrics as a specialism does not treat children as ‘small adults’, neither should society.

if you want to talk about "conversion therapy", you need to look at the transcripts of what staff at the UK's leading gender clinic have said about the young people who use their services:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51806962

Homophobia in families attending GIDS is mentioned in all the transcripts Newsnight has seen.

As well as seeing young people struggling with their sexuality, staff say some parents appeared to prefer their children to be transgender and straight, rather than gay.

In one example, a GIDS clinician describes a young person who had come out as a lesbian and faced homophobic bullying, "within the family and quite openly in school". "Suddenly the young person changed their mind and they started identifying as trans."

In some of these cases, clinicians thought that it wouldn't be appropriate for the patient to be referred for puberty blockers, with one child apparently saying: "My mum wants the hormone more than I do." But staff could be overruled by GIDS director Polly Carmichael, the transcripts suggest.

@Shizuku

So would there be any agreement here that trying to convert a trans child to cis is likely to be harmful to that child?

Is there therapy happening in the uk that attempts to convert trans children to Cis?

What makes a child ‘trans’?

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

Or they may resolve it. And of course medical interventions make lifelong alterations to the body. Which often cause lifelong health issues.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

Or they may resolve it. And of course medical interventions make lifelong alterations to the body. Which often cause lifelong health issues.

And lifelong dysphoria too. There was a young transwoman who died by suicide following penile inversion therapy to create a neovagina. Their expectations of the surgical intervention were markedly different to the outcome.

Puberty is very natural and something everyone goes through. Of course is causes distress in some - but treat that distress, not try to change reality.....

You know what other huge physical change causes distress!? Menopause, and aging in general. I see my parents, and grandparents before me, become increasingly frustrated at not being able to do things they used to be able to do any more, at how their aging bodies are becoming weaker, slower and impotent. But what is the solution? Treat that distress. And live with it....

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria'

Puberty makes natural changes to the body - as well as matures the brain. It is a natural process.

It is nothing like making irreversible changes to a person's healthy body to render them sexually dysfunctional and infertile.

Especially when that person may go through natural puberty and find peace with their gender identity given time to mature.

@Shizuku

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

Can you show how much damage has been done to previous generations by not following today's best practise ? How much have suicide rates fallen as a result of the new affirmative approach ?

Why is this posted in feminism? Shouldn't it be in LGBT?

Of course, we can just point Shizaku to the Tavistock and Portland’s own research into the benefits of affirmation, puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones on the mental health of dysphoric children.
No improvement. None.

@Shizuku

So would there be any agreement here that trying to convert a trans child to cis is likely to be harmful to that child?

Well, someone saying "well, of course you're a girl/boy - go away and don't be so stupid" would be very harmful - I'm sure anyone on the board would agree with that.

But how do you define conversion therapy? What about saying "can you tell me more about what you mean when you say you feel like a girl" "if society had different ideas about what a girl should be like do you think you would feel differently then?" Plus you'd want to explore all the other issues around the child.

Shizuku, apologies.

In a heteronormative world, how does a child know if they're gay or want to change sex?

Clothes are just clothes. But children are taught by society to stick to stereotypes.

Picking apart sexuality to prevent a child from making a confusing mistiake and choosing a lifetime of drugs and surgery (and worse) is not conversion therapy.

That's and irreversible decision.

Choosing who you love has no phyiscal implications.

I think it's important to actually see the stats differences between sexual orientation and gender identity. I don't think the link in the op highlights this at all. Sexual orientation and gender reassignment are poles apart, yet conflated to be one and the same. They really aren't.

I agree that it would be harmful for conversion therapy to be applied to sexual orientation. However I think sex reassignment is deeply homophobic and seeks to convert children physically with consequences that will impact on the rest of their lives. Those consequences range from breast removal, genital surgery, high risk of stroke, hear disease and brittle bones. With such consequences it is imperative that the right checks and balances are in place.

It is essential therefore for children who seek gender reassignment to undergo counselling and a watchful waiting process, to ensure they understand the serious physical consequences of gender reassignment and are able to weigh them up. This is the centre of safeguarding.

It seems to me sex reassignment conversion therapy and sexual orientation conversion therapy are two entirely different things that have been deliberately conflated.

Sexual orientation harms no one and there is no need for conversion therapy. Sex reassignment however can seriously physically harm the individual involved. For this reason people need to be given an opportunity to explore this much further, and the reasons behind it, before making physical life altering changes.

But it's obvious that the two things have been deliberately conflated. James kirkup sums up neatly the tactic of attaching the T to the LGB in order to get ahead of government policy to push their agenda through, whilst hiding in the shadows.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/amp?__twitter_impression=true&s=08

@Shizuku

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

Are you aware that the female brain, the ones with xx, has a greater risk of dementia and part of that starts to occur in mid life / peri menopause depending on the levels of oestrogen cycling through her brain?

These medical decisions we are expecting children to make are not knowns to adults let alone children.

@Shizuku

So would there be any agreement here that trying to convert a trans child to cis is likely to be harmful to that child?

I think there is general agreement here that forcing anyone to identify with harmful sex stereotypes is harmful hence why 'cis' is such an offensive concept.

If being trans is all about gender stereotypes, how could trans girls who are tomboys exist? Why would Charlie Martin be a Racing Driver? Why would Fallon Fox be a martial artist? Why would a close trans friend of mine be a butch lesbian?

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

I am surprised that people would think being trans is just about stereotypes in a forum where trans people are discussed so extensively.

I think there is general agreement here that forcing anyone to identify with harmful sex stereotypes is harmful hence why 'cis' is such an offensive concept

💯

Shizuku. What is a woman?

It's incredibly harmful to associate wanting to be a martial artist or racing driver with one sex excluding the other, and base your arguments on it.