Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

So, regardless of what you think gender means and whether you believe in it, you do know that there are people who were assigned male at birth and yet who feel that they are not male.

But they are male, because male is a sex, and you can't change sex.

If you don't believe that 'gender' is determined by characteristics that are sex-based stereotypes, and presumably you also don't believe gender is determined by biology, what exactly do you think gender is? What does having a female 'gender identity' (if you were born a man) actually mean? The answer "It means they feel like a woman" is no use unless you can define what 'feeling like a woman' actually means.

Most people on this board are European

Only some of them have European as part of their identity

Some people on this board who are not actually a citizen of any European country will identify as / with Europeans

Identify is not an observable fact. It's how your mind interprets the world and your place in it

By saying someone is male is irrelevant to the question of what identity they relate to/feel part of . They are different things.

The answer "It means they feel like a woman" is no use unless you can define what 'feeling like a woman' actually means.

You'll never get an answer.

Millions of people are it, think about it, it occupies their mind, their lives, it occupies their social media, and they know everything there is to know about it, but they still cannot give you one single, solitary example. Not one.

Reason? Being a woman isn't a feeling.

It's a feeling that the group of people they have most in common with are women

It doesn't matter if that is impossible, or based on a narrow or incorrect view, it's how they think and feel

They can feel what they feel . It doesn't change facts. Denying that they feel that way is bizarre . You know people felt sad when princess Diana died . Why? They didn't know her. It made no sense at all to me . Yet they did.

Why is it important to you to deny that they feel the way they do? Have you never had an irrational feeling?

i think a child or anyone contemplating a huge life changing event SHOULD see a psychiatrist or medical health practitioner.
the reality is the desire to change sex might be rooted in other childhood trauma (and "changing" sex to the outside world won't change the trauma). and that change what you wish, your dna will always be what your dna is.

No one is denying how they feel. I believe that regardless of how they feel, children should not be enabled by medical professionals to adulterate they bodies causing lifelong damage while never achieving what cannot be achieve, ie changing sex.

Totally with you not bad, except some here are denying how other people are feeling . It's most bizarre.

It doesn't matter if that is impossible, or based on a narrow or incorrect view, it's how they think and feel

It does matter.

Why is it important to you to deny that they feel the way they do? Have you never had an irrational feeling?

I don't deny they feel that they identify as a woman (even if they can't possibly know how it feels to be one, in much the same way as I don't know what it feels like to be a giraffe).

I'm sure I have had irrational feelings. But I don't expect other people to collude in them or pretend they are rational. And I don't expect them to be enshrined in law.

What’s missing from that survey..... the percentage of trans kids who are on the autistic spectrum or who are recovering from PTSD or abuse or who are struggling with puberty.

There is also a percentage missing for those who have undergone counselling to help

Yes, I was thinking about that just now.

Those stats really don't tell us anything other than this is a group of vulnerable young people.

Similar stats from here have also shown an increase in attempts or no change post transition/ pbs.

Watchful waiting IS NOT CONVERSION THERAPY

Exactly

They do feel they way they feel

Great , get on with it, whatever makes them happy . Dress how they like, call themselves what they like ...,provided it is safe and legal

But a feeling isn't a fact. Gender isn't sex . No one should mix them up or claim the rights of a sex based on their gender,. No one should lie to anyone and say that a sex change is really possible. Children should be supported in an evidence based way what optimises their future mental and physical health and happiness . Which I suspect does not involve puberty blockers or surgery

I think we are having a violent agreement?

In the meantime, the best evidence on the effects of conversion therapy on trans kids posted in this thread remains the Trevor Project survey.

Yet. This is not evidence at all! We keep saying this is a self selected survey and there is absolutely no depth to the data that they present.

It doesn’t define it terms. What is conversion therapy in regards to this survey? How does this relate to current treatments?

And how many of those participants were identifying as the opposite sex and how many were non-binary?

If anyone took this survey and used it to recommend treatment standards or policies, they should be held liable. This would cause significant harm to children and teenagers who are suffering from dysphoria. Do you actually want to set treatment standards based on such poor evidence?

You have not addressed any concerns about the data feeding this report yet call for lurkers to believe it unquestionably, and you want treatment plans to be set using it.

Again, there are clinicians who state that suicide risk remains high or even higher after medical transition has started due to any number of things. Some are, the lack of treatment of underlying mental health issues including trauma, poor outcomes of surgery, negative side effects of medication, a feeling that transitioning has not helped them cope with their dysphoria as they thought it would (or had been led to believe). These are just some of the reasons. Do you have any thoughts on this?

There is no denying that trans people deserve and need a higher standard of care. That is something many posters here are very concerned about.

Why? Because it is (for some) and it could very well be (for many others) our own children on or will be on the waiting list for treatment.

Please do not try to tell us we do not really care, or that we do not have valid concerns. On the contrary. And to present our interest as otherwise is lacking the understanding of the current cohort of transitioners.

I think we are having a violent agreement?

It seems so.

@Shizuku

So far, no one has come up with any studies that show the Trevor Project survey is wrong, and whilst plenty of you have plenty of doubts, the conclusion thus far must be that the best evidence we have is that conversion therapy attempts on trans kids are harmful and that therefore banning them is the safest policy.

And you have ignored, again and again, what women here have been posting about the gay conversion therapy that is done in the name of "affirming trans kids" when it is kids who are seeking an escape from a homophobic, sexist society, and/or are pushed into it by homophobic parents.

Why are you ignoring the problem of gay conversion therapy? Why, @Shizuku, do you appear not to give a shit about this?

@Shizuku

So far, no one has come up with any studies that show the Trevor Project survey is wrong, and whilst plenty of you have plenty of doubts, the conclusion thus far must be that the best evidence we have is that conversion therapy attempts on trans kids are harmful and that therefore banning them is the safest policy.

No, the Trevor Project report presents the data on conversion therapy and suicide attempts in a way that encourages misinterpretation, and in far too little detail to draw any meaningful conclusions about the effects of conversion therapy.

Data on rates of suicide attempts in trans and nonbinary youth who have undergone conversion therapy is presented alongside a graph showing higher rates of suicide attempts in all LGBTQ youth who undergo conversion therapy compared to those who don't. But the figures in the graph aren't broken down into separate rates for trans and nonbinary youth and gay/lesbian/bisexual youth. We have no way of knowing whether the quoted suicide attempt rate of 57% after conversion therapy in trans and nonbinary youth is higher or lower than the comparable suicide rate for trans and nonbinary youth who haven't undergone conversion therapy.

Even if the suicide attempt rate is higher for trans and nonbinary youth who have undergone conversion therapy versus those who haven't, all that this would prove is an association between conversion therapy and higher suicide rates. Association does not prove causality - i.e. higher suicide attempt rates may co-occur with conversion therapy, but that doesn't prove that conversion therapy is the cause of higher rates of suicide attempts. There are plenty of other factors that might play a causative role in higher suicide attempt rates in this context, e.g. mental health co-morbidities, strong religious beliefs, age, sex, socioeconomic disadvantage. The Trevor Project report doesn't tell us whether or not any of these factors differed in the conversion therapy vs no conversion therapy groups, so the conclusion that conversion therapy causes suicide attempts simply isn't scientifically valid. That conclusion would never get past peer review on the strength of the data presented.

And that's before we even get to the lack of definition of "conversion therapy" in the report and the conflation of sexual orientation and gender identity as the targets of "conversion".

So far, no one has come up with any studies that show the Trevor Project survey is wrong,

Well, there has been a particular problem in collecting this data. We don’t need studies to show this report is very problematic for the purpose you wish it to be used.

You might have read about the very poor records kept by Tavistock etc. Surely the lack of these vital records for being able to establish the best treatment plan is of concern to you too, just like it is for us? However, we have got reports written by experienced clinicians that report that suicide statistics that are often reported should be evaluated with very critical eyes and to make sure that simplistic conclusions are not drawn.

In these clinicians experience the suicide risk is not greater than other segments of the community. There is however, evidence that a) some young people come in and use suicide as a lever for treatment and b) that groups such as mermaids have in fact coached young patience to do this (ie. There is evidence of them doing so)

Again, these clinicians acknowledge the risk is high, but also draw on a wide range of reasons.

and whilst plenty of you have plenty of doubts

Which have not been addressed at all but have been attempted to be minimised.

the conclusion thus far must be that the best evidence we have is that conversion therapy attempts on trans kids are harmful and that therefore banning them is the safest policy.

And, we again point out that conversion therapy is undefined at all in this study. And I personally have seen definitions that mean anything but affirming only is considered ‘conversion’ therapy. This included watchful waiting.

It has also not been addressed in any way that affirming only treatment can lead to early medicalisation. And there is little evidence (re the Bell vs Tavistock) that the pathway to full transition is deviated from once started.

And again I point out that the negative side effects, the life shortening potential effects of these treatments for females has not been acknowledged.

Also, the lauded study that indicated that medical transition helped mental health was proven to be false within a year of its being published. So, do you have one that has successfully gone through peer review and dissemination by experts?

So. There is no evidence available that mental health is improved by transition. There is also no clear and defining data in this report so it is indicative at best but also, it is already known there is a high risk associated with gender disphoria.

We know that medical pathways for female transition has many little discussed negative health issues. We know that the majority of the current cohort of young people seeking treatment are female.

Can you please explain what you consider is a conversion therapy? Do you mean anything but affirming only is conversion therapy?

And if you think anything other than affirming only is conversion therapy, can you explain exactly how you see affirming treatment that ignores any underlying issues as being the only option available as being the best for all young trans people?

Because, I think that anyone currently reading along might also need this explained.

What's your desires with the 'watchful waiting' approach?

I believe that watchful waiting is just one option. It also allows treatable comorbidities to be treated which may have effect on decision for the next appropriate treatment.

Three high court judges believe that people under 15 cannot adequately understand the future issues they will face with medicalised treatment. And that people under 17 are also unlikely to understand in depth.

While there is debate that the rate of desisting after puberty is the published 85%, it is likely a high enough proportion to warrant watchful waiting for some patients. Why would you not wish to save a group of young people the harm of starting medical transition that they regret later? Because they were the group that would have desisted?

And you obviously know that the effects of medicalised transition is less reversible in females. And that a very large proportion of females have underlying conditions, often complex. Why would you advocate early medical transition for this group if there is absolutely no proof (as we have seen from the court case with the Tavistock) that this treatment is the best for this group.

Why would anyone advocate a single treatment path when alternatives should be sought and suggested as needed?

Old enough to legally consent. Old enough to understand that there are clear reports that medical therapies don’t improve mental health. Old enough that puberty has progressed enough to allow them to experience libido, sexual pleasure, can produce sperm or eggs for fertility, and their bone density has reached adult levels. Old enough to reach an age at which their dysphoria may have ceased with puberty, in line with what used to happen for years before children were al put on puberty blockers.

The “desire” is to not see children have permanent harm inflicted upon them for no mental health gain. It still shocks me that people don’t think this is a worthwhile cause.