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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hypothetically....

176 replies

AyeKarumba · 05/03/2021 08:21

If you had a child who was anorexic, would you say "don't worry we can fix your body because that's your problem. ....have dome diet pills now then you can get a tummy tuck & a breast reduction when you are older. That will make you happy"

Or would you ask why their world had made them feel so uncomfortable in their own body & try to help them feel happy with who they are?

OP posts:
risefromyourgrave · 05/03/2021 08:24

Interestingly enough I asked my DD yesterday whether she knew anyone with anorexia. The two people she knows with it are her non binary friend and her trans(man? Boy?) friend.....

zzzooomwatcher · 05/03/2021 08:47

I spent time in a Latin American country growing up and yes, it was common for teen girls to have surgeries to change their nose, their breasts etc. Lived in my moms country where lots of women take diet pills to be thin. It's a shame that they think they have to do these things.

Eteri · 05/03/2021 08:55

Not anorexia because of it's mortality rate, but if my child was desperately unhappy with say their nose to the point it was having a negative impact on their quality of life, I would be open to exploring options. Being dreadfully unhappy with your appreance is no way to go through life.

SittingAround1 · 05/03/2021 10:33

I find it terribly sad when young people are unhappy with their body and appearance.

The one girl in my class at school who became anorexic had a complicated and restricted home life. At first everyone was congratulating her on her weight loss, but then it got out of control and she was hospitalised. Fortunately she did get better.

I get this is in reference to trans children today. I absolutely believe children shouldn't be allowed to make irreversible changes to their body.

satishoused · 05/03/2021 10:52

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DickKerrLadies · 05/03/2021 10:56

@satishoused

I think a better analogy would be an an anorexic child with body dysmorphia insisted that they were fat, and their parents said "yeah, you are completely fat, what a fatty you are"

That's what the affirmative approach to gender dysphoria does

And encouraging them to count calories in everything and give them daily weigh-ins to aid them in their goal to reach the perfect weight.

Fucking hell it feels horrific even typing that out.

WendyTestaburger · 05/03/2021 10:58

@risefromyourgrave

Interestingly enough I asked my DD yesterday whether she knew anyone with anorexia. The two people she knows with it are her non binary friend and her trans(man? Boy?) friend.....
This doesn't surprise me. In my experience many teens girls are expressing pain through a trans identity that in the past they might have expressed through an eating disorder. It is a highly socially acceptable move which wins you attention from peers and professionals.

Misogyny is still cool, rife in schools and threaded through our society and popular culture; not only is there a desire to move away from the porn soaked vision of womanhood, being trans carries the extra layer of protection because transphobia is so socially unacceptable.

Then there is the obvious parallel with eating disorders whereby the physical body tries desperately not to be female - lose the breasts, the hips, the periods.

These girls are vulnerable. What they are expressing through their actions is so clear. One of the most profound dishonesties of mainstream trans rights activism (by that I mean the ideology, not trans people. Many trans people reject the ideology. Many pushers of the ideology identify as "cis") is to suggest that the heterosexual middle aged male transitioners, who keep their penises intact, are in any way best placed to understand the trauma behind teen girls' desire to escape 21st century womanhood. Girls who may be autistic, who may be lesbian, who may have suffered sexual assault, who may be having a tough time at home or have faced bullying at school.

TwistedEyeOfHorus · 05/03/2021 11:02

Great question.

BreatheAndFocus · 05/03/2021 11:04

Just to add that anorexia often isn’t only about body hatred or losing weight. It’s a symptom of internal distress.

That’s why anyone with similar problems needs understanding and listening to so that other problems can be identified and support given.

WindyPudding · 05/03/2021 11:15

I often see the argument that it's a desire to opt out of womanhood or move away from it because of the expected gender performance. But I'm not sure it's that clear in many teen girls' min. I wonder if it's more that a certain subset of girls realise they are not able to fit in in the expected way and so feel like a failure as a girl, or that they can't do it properly - so the message that they must be a boy is a solution that seems to make sense. Especially when it comes with all the affirmation, coolness and special trans "family" - and people don't tend to tell them all about the downsides, dangers, the possibility of changing their mind etc. I've seen detransitioners actually saying they had no idea they could be GNC and still be a woman, until they discovered radical feminists and their take on it, which is so tragic.

As a massive tomboy in the 70s and 80s I know this is how I felt. I wasn't gay either - I just couldn't "do" femininity and I knew trying to made me look silly. I didn't feel accepted by girls, until I was grown up really and could find like-minded friends.

Luckily it was the 70s and 80s and I remember some teachers actively celebrating my achievements at "boy" things like airfix and tree climbing instead of suggesting I was a boy.

Re anorexia, I think it's an important comparison. People with anorexia feel incredibly strongly that their body is wrong. It doesn't mean we have to agree with them or help them to harm it.

I also think trans/NB identity appeal to teens who generally have problems, suffer from abuse or don't fit in, and are seeking an escape, new identity, attention, affirmation and support, which they can get in spades by going down that route. That's one reason why it's so dangerous - those reasons get disguised and muddled up with "gender dysphoria".

Numicon · 05/03/2021 11:32

If my teen decided they were trans-racial, and needed to have melanin injections to give them dark skin, voice coaching to get an accent in their chosen ethnicity etc, should I allow it??

IvyTwines · 05/03/2021 11:40

'I wonder if it's more that a certain subset of girls realise they are not able to fit in in the expected way and so feel like a failure as a girl, or that they can't do it properly - so the message that they must be a boy is a solution that seems to make sense. Especially when it comes with all the affirmation, coolness and special trans "family"'

Yes, one of the saddest comments I've read here was from someone posting about their teenage daughter who, because she didn't physically fit the cookie-cutter instagram ideal of 'femininity', saying she wanted to identify as a boy because "everyone wants a trans bestie".

SapphosRock · 05/03/2021 13:25

Bad analogy. Anorexia is a mental illness and can be cured with psychotherapy and / or medication. Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness and cannot be cured, no matter how much therapy a person has.

WindyPudding · 05/03/2021 13:31

But people do recover from it - they're called detransitioners (if they went as far as transitioning). Maybe you think that therefore they didn't have "real" GD - but they and their gender consultants thought they did and acted on it.

I think this is part of the point - that it's very hard to disentangle perceived GD from other mental health issues and situations - especially when there are a lot of rewards (initially) inherent in pursuing it.

Kettlingur · 05/03/2021 13:49

@WindyPudding

But people do recover from it - they're called detransitioners (if they went as far as transitioning). Maybe you think that therefore they didn't have "real" GD - but they and their gender consultants thought they did and acted on it.

I think this is part of the point - that it's very hard to disentangle perceived GD from other mental health issues and situations - especially when there are a lot of rewards (initially) inherent in pursuing it.

It's a bit of a no true Scotsman argument isn't it. If you detransition, you weren't "truly" trans, but everyone who feels they're trans is trans.
OldCrone · 05/03/2021 13:54

@SapphosRock

Bad analogy. Anorexia is a mental illness and can be cured with psychotherapy and / or medication. Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness and cannot be cured, no matter how much therapy a person has.
But there are many different types of gender dysphoria, and some of them definitely appear to be a mental illness and others appear to be paraphilias.

A heterosexual middle aged man who feels aroused at the thought of himself as a woman does not have the same condition as a teenage girl who is trying to escape from the sexualised expectations of being a woman.

Gcnq · 05/03/2021 13:59

@SapphosRock

Bad analogy. Anorexia is a mental illness and can be cured with psychotherapy and / or medication. Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness and cannot be cured, no matter how much therapy a person has.
You need to speak to detransitioners quite urgently.
SittingAround1 · 05/03/2021 14:01

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness and cannot be cured, no matter how much therapy a person has.

Do you think it's possible for them to get help to be able to live happily in the body they were born in (whilst presenting to the outside world as they wish). Or do you think the surgery / hormone route is the only way ?

Theunamedcat · 05/03/2021 14:03

Anorexia to my mind is a type of body dysmorphia they feel fat genuinely see fat looking back on pictures of me with an eating disorder im bloody BONEY why did I feel so fat all I saw saw fat its total body hatred

Theunamedcat · 05/03/2021 14:03

Anorexia and bulimia is never cured not really

SapphosRock · 05/03/2021 14:25

Do you think it's possible for them to get help to be able to live happily in the body they were born in (whilst presenting to the outside world as they wish). Or do you think the surgery / hormone route is the only way ?

Everyone's different aren't they. But I think surgery and hormones are the only way to alleviate the dysphoria for some people. And when I say people I obviously mean adults!

BlackForestCake · 05/03/2021 14:37

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SittingAround1 · 05/03/2021 14:39

Everyone's different aren't they. But I think surgery and hormones are the only way to alleviate the dysphoria for some people. And when I say people I obviously mean adults!

So how can children be helped ?

SapphosRock · 05/03/2021 14:40

A condition a person is born with, like being gay or having brown eyes.

I wouldn't say many people actively choose it.

Gcnq · 05/03/2021 14:43

It's well known that anorexia and eating disorders often stem from childhood trauma you aren't just "born with it". Same with gender dysphoria. It's very similar.

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