Hypothetically....

[AyeKarumba]

If you had a child who was anorexic, would you say "don't worry we can fix your body because that's your problem. ....have dome diet pills now then you can get a tummy tuck & a breast reduction when you are older. That will make you happy"

Or would you ask why their world had made them feel so uncomfortable in their own body & try to help them feel happy with who they are?

@merrymouse You do realise you've quoted Julie Bindel who is a "political lesbian".

This means that she's not actually attracted to women. She believes that sexuality is a political choice.

If you want to talk about homophobia - this is homophobia.

@DeaconBoo

I had read it. Can you answer my question? It wasn't about whether a third party believes it or not. You stated that there is such a thing as "pretending to be trans". What does this mean and what is the difference between that and being trans?

You're having a little trouble following this conversation. Maybe you should take a seat.

*@DeaconBoo If you'd read the conversation prior to this, you'd notice that we've established that it's based on believing someone's self declaration.

The same way you believe (or don't) someone when they tell you they're gay.*

No, I think we established that you were a bit confused about the difference between the objective existence of a concept (sexual attraction) and telling the truth.

A recent FoI request has proven that this person never even worked with GIDS.

Do you have a link to this @yeahbutnaw? I couldn't see anything like that in their FOI log.

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/contact-us/freedom-of-information/foi-disclosure-log/

A number of clinicians were interviewed for the Times article, and I don't think any of them were named in the article, so I don't understand how a FOI request could establish that an unnamed person had never worked for the Tavistock.

Archive link to the Times article. "It feels like conversion therapy for gay children, say clinicians"
archive.vn/zy6PA

[quote merrymouse]*@DeaconBoo If you'd read the conversation prior to this, you'd notice that we've established that it's based on believing someone's self declaration.

The same way you believe (or don't) someone when they tell you they're gay.*

No, I think we established that you were a bit confused about the difference between the objective existence of a concept (sexual attraction) and telling the truth.[/quote]
Please do explain why sexual attraction (lol, you mean sexual orientation) as a concept "objectively exists" whereas gender identity doesn't.

You're having a little trouble following this conversation. Maybe you should take a seat.

I think you are having difficulty following a conversation.

To have the concept of 'pretending to be trans', you need to explain what trans means.

If somebody says they do not identify with any gender, are they expressing the fact that they are non-binary or gender critical?

@merrymouse

You're having a little trouble following this conversation. Maybe you should take a seat.

I think you are having difficulty following a conversation.

To have the concept of 'pretending to be trans', you need to explain what trans means.

If somebody says they do not identify with any gender, are they expressing the fact that they are non-binary or gender critical?

Personally, I'm just happy that you've stopped trying to teach LGB people about their own history.

[quote yeahbutnaw]@merrymouse You do realise you've quoted Julie Bindel who is a "political lesbian".

This means that she's not actually attracted to women. She believes that sexuality is a political choice.

If you want to talk about homophobia - this is homophobia.[/quote]
If I do recall, I think Julie Bindel is attracted to women and sees being a lesbian as a political choice that any straight woman can opt to become to distance themselves from men.

I could be wrong on the first part, but the second definitely does have homophobic (as well as misogynistic, as it often puts blame on women who are abused by male partners when they could have just 'chosen to be a lesbian') roots.

@evarish I'm afraid not even the first part is true.

yeahbutnaw I'll assume you can't answer, then. No need to be embarrassed and start getting rude - acknowledging where you don't know something can be a great trigger for learning.

Please do explain why sexual attraction (lol, you mean sexual orientation) as a concept "objectively exists" whereas gender identity doesn't.

No, I mean sexual attraction. I can say I am attracted to this person or that person, and you believe that I am lying, but only because you can understand the concept of sexual attraction.

If you would like to define gender identity, please go ahead.

@merrymouse

Please do explain why sexual attraction (lol, you mean sexual orientation) as a concept "objectively exists" whereas gender identity doesn't.

No, I mean sexual attraction. I can say I am attracted to this person or that person, and you believe that I am lying, but only because you can understand the concept of sexual attraction.

If you would like to define gender identity, please go ahead.

Then you're conflating two completely different concepts (yet again!)

We were talking about sexual orientation. Not sexual attraction.

We're not talking about specific individuals who tickle your fancy (sexual attraction). We're talking about an enduring pattern of sexual attraction to people of the same, or opposite, gender.

To put that briefly:

Do you support gay conversion therapy? If not, why do you think it's acceptable in this case?

Preventing a child from physical and psychological harm is not conversion therapy.

Affirmation is a form of conversion therapy, whether it stems from homophobia, or from reluctance to challenge the current genderist orthodoxy. Affirmation leads to a radical 'conversion' of that child's life.

This means that she's not actually attracted to women.

Really? She seems to have been in a relationship with a woman for a very long time.

Or are you being a bit homophobic by suggesting that her relationships are somehow less valid - that she isn't the right kind of lesbian?

We were talking about sexual orientation. Not sexual attraction.

Sexual orientation is based on sexual attraction. Both Sexual orientation and sexual attraction can be objectively defined. I see you are still having some trouble with Gender identity.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

To put that briefly:

Do you support gay conversion therapy? If not, why do you think it's acceptable in this case?

Preventing a child from physical and psychological harm is not conversion therapy.

Affirmation is a form of conversion therapy, whether it stems from homophobia, or from reluctance to challenge the current genderist orthodoxy. Affirmation leads to a radical 'conversion' of that child's life.

Yet you don't oppose gay affirmation therapy. That seems logically inconsistent, no?

@merrymouse

This means that she's not actually attracted to women.

Really? She seems to have been in a relationship with a woman for a very long time.

Or are you being a bit homophobic by suggesting that her relationships are somehow less valid - that she isn't the right kind of lesbian?

A belief that homosexuality is a choice is inherently homophobic.

Perhaps you should listen to LGB people on this.

Or do you think that men should have an opinion on what is misogyny and what isn't?

It's an adults job to guide teens to maturity with wisdom and strength
Adolescence can be fucking awful. So many new ideas, feelings, certainties and doubt. But you simply dont have the experience or maturity at that age to make drastic irreversible decisions.
The reason we know that is because we have all been there. Full of passionate certainty, sure we will never change our mind, unable to imagine being 25 never mind 50.

Affirmation only type therapy for trans teens is deeply reductive and unhelpful.
It shouldn't be a shock to see the medical professional tied to a particular ideology- it's happened before - but it remains shocking to me

@7Days

It's an adults job to guide teens to maturity with wisdom and strength Adolescence can be fucking awful. So many new ideas, feelings, certainties and doubt. But you simply dont have the experience or maturity at that age to make drastic irreversible decisions. The reason we know that is because we have all been there. Full of passionate certainty, sure we will never change our mind, unable to imagine being 25 never mind 50.

Affirmation only type therapy for trans teens is deeply reductive and unhelpful.
It shouldn't be a shock to see the medical professional tied to a particular ideology- it's happened before - but it remains shocking to me

May I ask, what do you think affirmation therapy for a trans teen contains?

Personally, I'm just happy that you've stopped trying to teach LGB people about their own history.

This is an anonymous forum and I no have way of knowing your age, sexuality or sex, just as you have no way to knowing mine.

If you want to put forward an argument, it needs to stand on its own merits. So far all I have learned is that you think there is a wrong way to be a lesbian and that you think that same sex relationships are only valid if the people involved can't help themselves, which, again, seems homophobic.

Yet you don't oppose gay affirmation therapy. That seems logically inconsistent, no?

No, because as has been said over and over, they have very different consequences. Saying you're gay doesn't tend to lead to damaging your healthy body, or other people's rights being taken away.

However, if my child said they were gay, I wouldn't say "yes you're so stunning and brave and indisputably right", the type of affirmation trans teens get. I'd say fine, I'd say the same if they changed their mind, and I wouldn't expect them to commit to one person or close off other options, based on a decision made at age say 14.

Oh and I don't mean decision to be gay, I mean to announce it - I'm not saying being gay is a decision.

Perhaps you should listen to LGB people on this.

I have. Again, your response seems homophobic.

"Affirmation only" evarish

Ridiculous and reductive, esprlecially when a teen presents with comorbidities and/or is neuro atypical.

If you want to put forward an argument, it needs to stand on its own merits. So far all I have learned is that you think there is a wrong way to be a lesbian and that you think that same sex relationships are only valid if the people involved can't help themselves, which, again, seems homophobic.

... Do you think gay people, as in the ones that are actually attracted to people according to their sexuality, are only in relationships with other people because 'they can't help themselves' otherwise?

Wouldn't this lend easily to the argument that gay people could easily be in straight relationships 'if only they didn't succumb to their urges'?

The argument that anyone can choose to be a lesbian, not just women exclusively attracted to women (who, quote, can't help themselves) reeks of homophobia in itself and would be a killer argument in conversion therapy.