Hypothetically....

[AyeKarumba]

If you had a child who was anorexic, would you say "don't worry we can fix your body because that's your problem. ....have dome diet pills now then you can get a tummy tuck & a breast reduction when you are older. That will make you happy"

Or would you ask why their world had made them feel so uncomfortable in their own body & try to help them feel happy with who they are?

Don't think hypotheticaly! You should have a direct thoughts to solve such problems!

Ridiculous and reductive, esprlecially when a teen presents with comorbidities and/or is neuro atypical.

As you've not answered my question-

Affirmation therapy involves using the pronouns someone indicates, referring to them as the gender they indicate, talking to them about trauma, stigma, sexuality, violence they face, other diagnostics they may have without judgement and without pressure to be something else. It creates a safe space where someone can develope to be themselves, regardless of if that's transgender or not.

Obviously, every individual therapist may vary as therapists are humans with all their failings, but the best run affirmation therapy is one that takes the trans youth seriously and discusses with them the future, gives space for doubt and questioning without pressuring the individual any which way, and makes a realistic plan that wholly and entirely hinges on the youth's own desires and needs (in which any clinic that pressures any hormonal or surgical procedures is one I deem deeply transphobic and not at all in practice of affirmation therapy).

... Do you think gay people, as in the ones that are actually attracted to people according to their sexuality, are only in relationships with other people because 'they can't help themselves' otherwise?

No, but that is the basis of arguing that homosexuality is only acceptable if it is innate.

Wouldn't this lend easily to the argument that gay people could easily be in straight relationships 'if only they didn't succumb to their urges'?

No, because why would anyone argue that they should be in straight relationships? Why would anyone care?

The argument that anyone can choose to be a lesbian, not just women exclusively attracted to women (who, quote, can't help themselves) reeks of homophobia in itself and would be a killer argument in conversion therapy.

Again, why would anyone care? Conversion therapy is a concept created by people who think gay sex is somehow sinful. They don't think its less sinful if the people involved also have heterosexual sex (so are bisexual), and many Christians who believe gay sex is sinful are quite relaxed about the idea of same sex attraction as long as there is no sex.

Yeahbutnaw you quote from a document that refers to a debate which reached its height in 1981 with the publication of an infamous booklet "Love Your Enemy? The debate between heterosexual feminism and political lesbianism".

But this booklet (which i happen to have open on my desk) is exactly that -- a debate. Yes, Leeds Revolutionary Feminists state in the introduction "all feminists can and should be political lesbians". But the whole 68-page booklet continues as a debate that was carried out in the pages of women's liberation newsletters, by women of all backgrounds and all strands of feminism.

There was no political orthodoxy in women's liberation at the time. The RFs held their strong views, other women held other views and we talked about it without anyone getting death threats or losing their job.

There was no one acceptable and correct opinion. Julie Burchill is as entitled to her own view as the rest of us are.

Evarish, do you believe that children are born in the wrong body? How does one differentiate between a child that might be gay and a child that is trans? Do you accept that young people are extremely impressionable?

do you believe that children are born in the wrong body? How does one differentiate between a child that might be gay and a child that is trans? Do you accept that young people are extremely impressionable?

I do not believe anyone is born in the wrong body, I believe someone should have full control of the body that they have to do with it what they want (within reason).

I can't differentiate between a gay and a trans child as they're comparing two entirely different, often overlapping as a most trans people are same-gender attracted, groups.

Yes, youth are impressionable, but I'd feel for any lesbian who contemplated transitioning because someone said they would make for a better trans man when almost all trans men are told they should be a butch lesbian - it'd create a bit of a ridiculous loop, wouldn't it?

Affirmation therapy involves using the pronouns someone indicates, referring to them as the gender they indicate

I probably need to make myself clearer Evarish, apologies. I was thinking about children and the above comment. Repetition is a well known educational device. It's how children learn facts about the world. A child wouldn't know about gender pronouns or identities without an adult explaining that to them and the repetition would be led by adults. Do you think there's a danger that children could be led into believing themselves to be something because it's in line with the thinking of the adults of the day..?

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog

Affirmation therapy involves using the pronouns someone indicates, referring to them as the gender they indicate

I probably need to make myself clearer Evarish, apologies. I was thinking about children and the above comment. Repetition is a well known educational device. It's how children learn facts about the world. A child wouldn't know about gender pronouns or identities without an adult explaining that to them and the repetition would be led by adults. Do you think there's a danger that children could be led into believing themselves to be something because it's in line with the thinking of the adults of the day..?

That's precisely the argument that led to Section 28.

A child wouldn't know about gender pronouns or identities without an adult explaining that to them and the repetition would be led by adults. Do you think there's a danger that children could be led into believing themselves to be something because it's in line with the thinking of the adults of the day..?

Children are taught about gender pronouns in schools during grammar lessons.

You seem to treat being transgender as an 'adult' thing and I'm curious why. Most trans youth will realize either prior to puberty or around puberty that they are trans, though former generations didn't have words for it and often dwelled in a miserable youth instead (with the exception of a HUGE minority of people who were referred to GICs, which... I mean, it's astonishing, given I find myself needing to explain the concept of transgender people to some medical professionals even in 2021, let alone decades ago).

@yeahbutnaw

The most obvious cause is increased awareness and acceptance.

The number of people identifying as LGB increased drastically in the last decade too.

Do you call that Rapid Onset Gayness?

The most obvious case would only explain this if there was an equal rise in boys and girls. There isn't. Worldwide, girls presenting as post-adolescents outnumber boys between 2 to 1 and 7 to 1 (and that was around three years ago, when this was all just taking off). From 50 years of empirical studies into early-onset transsexuals and children diagnosed with gender dysphoria we know that boys very very marginally outnumber girls, but it would be safe to say that amongst early-onset transsexuals both sexes were represented in equal numbers.

So, given that increased awareness and acceptance cannot account for such a strong disparity between the sexes, there must be other explanations. And there seems to be a far more obvious one: that 21st century girlhood is miserable enough now that rising numbers wish to opt out. One of the most worrying indicators for that is that suicides amongst girls and young women are at a record high, with numbers almost doubling between 2012 and 2109. We know from research that this represents merely the tip of the iceberg - many more girls and young women are suffering from anxiety and depression. The reasons are varied, but they are not unknown - social media is a big factor, as is the endemic rise in sexual harassment and violence at school and in their relationships.

At best then, a part of the increase in teenagers presenting with gender dysphoria can be explained with greater awareness and acceptance with the imbalance due to a decline in happiness amongst girls and young women. At worst, a tiny part of the increase is due to the former while most of the increase is due to the latter.

That's precisely the argument that led to Section

Being gay does not require young people to undergo radical surgery, take irreversible cross sex hormones, possibly wave goodbye to proper sexual function and welcome issues like early onset osteoporosis and vaginal atrophy.

The most obvious case would only explain this if there was an equal rise in boys and girls. There isn't. Worldwide, girls presenting as post-adolescents outnumber boys between 2 to 1 and 7 to 1 (and that was around three years ago, when this was all just taking off). From 50 years of empirical studies into early-onset transsexuals and children diagnosed with gender dysphoria we know that boys very very marginally outnumber girls, but it would be safe to say that amongst early-onset transsexuals both sexes were represented in equal numbers.

Prior to approximately 2004, referrals to gender identity clinics had (for ease of conversation) male patients outnumber female patients by the same number as the reverse, now. It was never seen as an issue that needed to be looked into, then, nor do you even seem to be aware of it, as you gave the claim that the numbers have roughly been even.

Why is it suddenly a problem when the numbers are reversed?

You seem to treat being transgender as an 'adult' thing

You still haven't explained how being transgender manifests in a child? We hear often that children know if there're trans but also numerous tales of how that was actually diagnosed because adults observed behaviours in that child pertaining to the opposite sex. That's why I talk about this from an adult perspective. The diagnosis for trans children was created by adults and involves a tick box exercise that includes playing with toys more commonly associated with the opposite sex. I am also aware that the trans umbrella includes a diverse range of individuals and I wonder how this fixed notion of the trans child fits into that?

@Evarish

The most obvious case would only explain this if there was an equal rise in boys and girls. There isn't. Worldwide, girls presenting as post-adolescents outnumber boys between 2 to 1 and 7 to 1 (and that was around three years ago, when this was all just taking off). From 50 years of empirical studies into early-onset transsexuals and children diagnosed with gender dysphoria we know that boys very very marginally outnumber girls, but it would be safe to say that amongst early-onset transsexuals both sexes were represented in equal numbers.

Prior to approximately 2004, referrals to gender identity clinics had (for ease of conversation) male patients outnumber female patients by the same number as the reverse, now. It was never seen as an issue that needed to be looked into, then, nor do you even seem to be aware of it, as you gave the claim that the numbers have roughly been even.

Why is it suddenly a problem when the numbers are reversed?

For GIDS, male patients (40) slightly outnumbered female patients (32) in 2009, which is the earliest date that they have figures for. This started to change in 2011, to the approximately 3:1 female:male ratio we see today (1740 female, 624 male in 2019).

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1662/FOI_19-20148_GIDS_M-F__F-M_1967_to_2018.pdf

Do you have earlier figures for the Tavistock? This FOI says that "GIDS became a nationally commissioned service in 2009" and these are the earliest figures they have.

The reversal is a 'problem' because there has been an enormous increase in the number of referrals. In 2019 there were more than 50 times as many girls referred compared to 2009, while there were only 15 times as many boys referred compared to 2009. Doesn't this strike you as a little odd?

Why is there this huge increase, at a much greater rate for girls than boys? @yeahbutnaw has argued that The most obvious cause is increased awareness and acceptance. (But has also said Why on earth would someone choose/pretend to be trans at a time when it is hugely frowned upon? Which seems to contradict the increased acceptance statement.)

If it is greater acceptance, why the switch from mainly male to mainly female?

@OldCrone You're thinking in binary terms - that there's either acceptance or there's not. That's not the case.

There's relatively more acceptance and awareness of trans people now than there was 20 years ago. That doesn't mean it's universal.

I mean, you're on a forum renowned for its hostility to trans people.

No, this is a forum that is renowned for its opposition to the enforcement of gender, because it has deprived women of basic rights including but not limited to access to education, employment and participation in government.

Generally users of this forum, this topic in particular, believe that nobody should be expected to conform to a gender, and so are naturally suspicious of any ideology that insists that human identity must be viewed through the prism of gender.

Hmm why should someone choose to be trans...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?msgid=105294830#105294830

yeahbutnaw, I do very much oppose gay conversion therapy. As I said at 17.47, Gay conversion therapy tries to make you something you're not. Why should lesbians or gay men try to become heterosexual? They're fine as they are.

Whether gay or heterosexual, most people live their lives without major surgery or dependence on drugs, at least until old age. Their lifestyle doesn't affect anyone else's.

Being trans involves lifelong dependence on body-changing drugs and often includes surgery on healthy body parts. Transwomen's wish to be accepted as women has a major impact on women's rights.

LG and B are totally different from T.

Prior to approximately 2004, referrals to gender identity clinics had (for ease of conversation) male patients outnumber female patients by the same number as the reverse, now. It was never seen as an issue that needed to be looked into, then, nor do you even seem to be aware of it, as you gave the claim that the numbers have roughly been even.

Why is it suddenly a problem when the numbers are reversed?

This is incorrect. In children who present with gender dysphoria in early childhood (this includes homosexual transsexuals aka early-onset transsexuals), empirical evidence from 50 years of research shows that the sex ratio was equal (to be precise, it was something like 1.06 male children for every female child).

Male children were referred much earlier than female children, because society tolerates tomboys better than feminine boys, but by around nine or ten years of age enough girls were referred to balance the ratio. That's because the older girls get, the less acceptable it is for them to be gender atypical. By age 18, both sexes are evenly represented amongst early-onset homosexual transsexuals.

There has never been even a 2 : 1 skew towards males amongst early-onset transsexuals, let alone a 7 : 1 one.

Those with adolescent and post adolescent teenage onset are a new cohort. Their sex ratio is heavily weighted towards the female sex, and they present quite differently from early-onset transsexuals (in, for instance, having been gender typical prior to presenting with gender dysphoria, unlike early-onset transsexuals who are extremely gender atypical from a yoing age).

Are you maybe thinking of late-onset transsexuals when you say the ratio has always been in favour of males? Amongst transsexuals in general that is certainly true, due to the fact that there is no equivalent cohort of late-onset female transsexuals, and because late onset transsexuals outnumber early onset ones by quite some measure, but this thread is specifically about children. And for children diagnosed with gender dysphoria this does represent a significant change in the distribution of the sexes.

(I recommend reading Kenneth Zucker and other researchers who primarily focus on children diagnosed with gender dysphoria for some insight into this cohort.)

@merrymouse

No, this is a forum that is renowned for its opposition to the enforcement of gender, because it has deprived women of basic rights including but not limited to access to education, employment and participation in government.

Generally users of this forum, this topic in particular, believe that nobody should be expected to conform to a gender, and so are naturally suspicious of any ideology that insists that human identity must be viewed through the prism of gender.

This explains why people here fully accept explanations of trans as being an unhappiness with the sexed body (we all understand what women have in common physically) but have questions about it being about gender identity & nothing to do with biology (we can't understand what women have in common other than our bodies that aren't just damaging stereotypes).

@CharlieParley

This is incorrect. In children who present with gender dysphoria in early childhood (this includes homosexual transsexuals aka early-onset transsexuals), empirical evidence from 50 years of research shows that the sex ratio was equal (to be precise, it was something like 1.06 male children for every female child).

I'm assuming you're using the statistics of Kenneth 'Testing the physical attractiveness of averaged 6.6 year old girls with gender dysphoria' Zucker, given you're using the term 'homosexual transsexuals'? I was comparing it to the referrals to the clinic in Amsterdam from which the Dutch protocol originated.

[quote Evarish]@CharlieParley

This is incorrect. In children who present with gender dysphoria in early childhood (this includes homosexual transsexuals aka early-onset transsexuals), empirical evidence from 50 years of research shows that the sex ratio was equal (to be precise, it was something like 1.06 male children for every female child).

I'm assuming you're using the statistics of Kenneth 'Testing the physical attractiveness of averaged 6.6 year old girls with gender dysphoria' Zucker, given you're using the term 'homosexual transsexuals'? I was comparing it to the referrals to the clinic in Amsterdam from which the Dutch protocol originated.[/quote]
Those aren't particularly useful graphics. They don't clearly show the M/F ratio for children and the data only goes to 2015. Do you have a link to the paper that they are taken from?

Only showing data up to 2015 is also misleading, since if you look at the Tavistock figures in the link I posted yesterday, you'll see that in 2014/15 399 girls and 250 boys were referred compared to 1740 girls and 624 boys in 2018/19. So between 2015 and 2019, not only have the numbers increased, but the female:male ratio has also increased.

There is more data here, showing a continued increase into 2019/20, but it's not all broken down into male/female.
gids.nhs.uk/number-referrals

Those aren't particularly useful graphics. They don't clearly show the M/F ratio for children and the data only goes to 2015. Do you have a link to the paper that they are taken from?

The graphic clearly indicates the number of trans men and trans women referred, and the data I was speaking of was of the references up until 2004, so the data post-2015 is irrelevant.

Insisting that me listing data up until 2015 is 'misleading' when I said, explicitely, that the references up until 2004 showed a skewed ratio to the opposite end is reading incomprehension at best, a bad faith argument at worst.

The graphic was associated with a study that is behind a paywall.

One of the contradictions I see in the affirmation model proposed by Mermaids and others where the child wishes are not questioned, is that they say the numbers are up because of social acceptance and at the same time they push the affirmation model as a blackmail to parents saying the 'better a daughter than a dead son' mantra etc.

I do believe transsexuality is an adult thing and children should just be watched and waited on without encouraging medical pathways. I have witnessed girls passing on tips and scripts about how to present to GPs for referrals bypassing CAMHS. Not that there is much capacity for MH assistant but if looked under a 'gender' glass, there is no questioning at all and the affirmation with names and pronouns start. This is a difficult point of return for many teens who don't want to loose face at the best of times.

And the fact that there is no curiosity in the medical establishment to figure out why the increase or how to study the detransitioning phenomenon is so worrying. It is like the only patients they care about is the ones they can affirm.

@Evarish

Those aren't particularly useful graphics. They don't clearly show the M/F ratio for children and the data only goes to 2015. Do you have a link to the paper that they are taken from?

The graphic clearly indicates the number of trans men and trans women referred, and the data I was speaking of was of the references up until 2004, so the data post-2015 is irrelevant.

Insisting that me listing data up until 2015 is 'misleading' when I said, explicitely, that the references up until 2004 showed a skewed ratio to the opposite end is reading incomprehension at best, a bad faith argument at worst.

The graphic was associated with a study that is behind a paywall.

The data post 2015 is not irrelevant, since it is now 2021, and the GIDS data shows a marked increase in referrals since 2015.

The graphic doesn't show the comparative numbers of children (which is what this thread is about) clearly at all. It appears to show a decrease in referrals of male children and an increase in referrals of female children, with females now outnumbering males. At GIDS, the most recent data for children under 12 shows almost equal numbers of both sexes.

At GIDS there has been a huge increase in referrals for both sexes (including the youngest children) since 2009, so your data is showing a different pattern.

One thing that is clear from those charts is a massive increase in adolescent girls identifying as transgender from about 2013, which does correlate with the GIDS data.

I don't understand why you're talking about pre-2004 data. From what I can make out from those charts, the number of children and adolescents of both sexes presenting as transgender before 2004 was negligible so it's impossible to see whether there is a M/F difference let alone what the ratio might be (and since the numbers are so small, I'm not sure that a ratio would be reliable).

Can you post a link (or proper citation) for the data? I'd like to have a look at the whole paper. Saying 'it's behind a paywall' is not really helpful - many people on here have access to paywalled academic papers.