Hypothetically....

[AyeKarumba]

If you had a child who was anorexic, would you say "don't worry we can fix your body because that's your problem. ....have dome diet pills now then you can get a tummy tuck & a breast reduction when you are older. That will make you happy"

Or would you ask why their world had made them feel so uncomfortable in their own body & try to help them feel happy with who they are?

I'm not saying I'm right re transgenderism being like sexuality btw, I'm just saying that no one is in a position to say it is more like mental illness than sexuality because there is no research to support that.

I do find the culture around sexuality vs trans is though - you wouldn't ask the parent of a gay child - "how did that manifest itself" or otherwise question that, so why is it okay to ask that of a trans person?

I actually think it's a core issue of the trans debate from the feminist perspective - the inability to gauge the idea of being trans as anything other than "conforming to sexist stereotypes" without considering how innate the concept of gender is to humans.

That gender is a social construct is not an argument against itself - it's surely a fact that as complex social creatures, concepts such as gender will never go away. Sex does not exist in a vacuum and so I don't understand the lack of ability to accept that someone can feel like they are a woman, or feel like they are a man, innately and overwhelmingly so. Which is why I don't get the "can you explain what a woman is without using sexist stereotypes" line. I'm quite sure that transwomen don't think being a woman consists of throwing on a dress and some lippie. I'm sure it is much more to do with innately identifying with the opposite sex and therefore doing what you can to fit in with your perception of that group (which would be based on societal constructs, such as women = dress and long hair).

I don't mean to overstep as obviously as I am a straight woman I cannot speak from experience but I heard an explanation once from a trans woman along these lines and it made complete sense.

@yeahbutnaw

If your intent is to force the child not to be trans - it's conversion therapy. It's quite simple.

It's the exact same thing that gay people and lesbians were subjected to for decades.

It's not forcing anything. It's passive. Watchful waiting.

I guess it's back to the different profiles of people seeking help from gender clinics again.

The rapid onset gender dysphoria generally seen in teenage girls who's subjective history shows no pre existing gender incongruence, are statistically quite likely to be same sex attracted and likely to desist.

Better to wait until someone comes of age to see if they desist, than push them down the path of irreversible change and then have them detransistion or remain disatisfied.

Automatically going for the affirmative model (when adopted for kids who are actually confused about sexuality or gender non conformity) is not passive, it is active and has been compared by some to gay conversion therapy.

So I guess it's not quite simple- it's an impass and to ensure we do the right thing for these children, we need to be guided by the data. Why such a rush?

Agree. Why such a rush?

Governor of Tavistock Foundation quits over damning report into gender identity clinic

"Decision expected to intensify scrutiny of service accused of ‘fast-tracking’ young people"

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/23/child-transgender-service-governor-quits-chaos?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

I'm sure it is much more to do with innately identifying with the opposite sex and therefore doing what you can to fit in with your perception of that group

How do you innately identify with the opposite sex? What are you identifying with? What's the difference between women and men?

Does Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria exist?

I'm pretty confident it doesn't. It's not mentioned in any clinical settings.

@SittingAround1

Can people live fulfilled and happy lives if they've undergone gender reassignment? I would say yes.

But do they though? It's a lifetime of medical intervention on an otherwise healthy body, infertility and goodness knows what else.
Recovery from surgery is painful. From what I understand sexual satisfaction isn't guaranteed after either.
I wonder the same about people who have a lot of plastic surgery - is it masking an unresolved pain underneath ?
(I'm happy to be proved wrong on this)

I know trans people living happy lives - they have relationships, families, close community. Though the ones I know are my age and older (30s/40s) and transitioned quite some time ago, so any issues around their transition were dealt with back then, iyswim.

Re: "conversion" tactics - I feel like that young people are being raised in unprecedented times. They are growing up in an increasingly gender-rigid and pornified society which is more and more divided from older, communal ways of living every day. We're facing environmental and mental health crises everywhere. We're living more and more online.

I'm not saying it's end of days here or that all modern developments and technology are bad, and I for one do not glorify the Good Old Days either.

However, rather than a bunch of women here being out to "convert" kids into something, I feel like its this new creepy world which is doing a bang-up job of "converting" young children into thinking it is better to cut bits off your body and take dangerous medications for life, to fit in - rather than trying to change the status quo instead. And there are mums here saying "this isn't okay, the world is damaging these young people and who is getting off on pushing all this stuff ahead?

(I am aware by the way that might not make the most sense. I'm only on a few hours sleep here.)

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog I don't think it's too tricky to realises there are physical differences and societally perceived differences between men and women.

If you went into a room with 10 men and 10 women, regardless of how they are dressed or presented or if the men had makeup on and the women were bald, you would still know if they were men and women pretty much by sight, no?

So given that is it still hard to imagine that someone might innately identify with one gender more than the other, even if that gender did not correlate to their biological sex?

@yeahbutnaw

Does Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria exist?

I'm pretty confident it doesn't. It's not mentioned in any clinical settings.

What explains the rapid rise in teenage girls at the Tavistock?

"The number of 13-year-olds seeking treatment rose by 30% in a year to 331. Referrals of 14-year-olds went up by a quarter, to 511. Across all ages, the entire year’s rise was accounted for by girls. The number of boys referred, 624, was the same as last year. The number of girls was 1,740, or 74% of patients at the service." 2019 figs

[quote PearlescentIridescent]@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog I don't think it's too tricky to realises there are physical differences and societally perceived differences between men and women.

If you went into a room with 10 men and 10 women, regardless of how they are dressed or presented or if the men had makeup on and the women were bald, you would still know if they were men and women pretty much by sight, no?

So given that is it still hard to imagine that someone might innately identify with one gender more than the other, even if that gender did not correlate to their biological sex?[/quote]
Your talking about biological markers and appearance, no? How do you innately feel like a woman?

You're not your

The most obvious cause is increased awareness and acceptance.

The number of people identifying as LGB increased drastically in the last decade too.

Do you call that Rapid Onset Gayness?

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Imagine if you look at the 10 women and you just felt like you were like them. You don't have a vagina but you felt like you should have. You look at the men and you don't feel the same sense of identification. You don't feel comfortable with the fact that you are biologically also a man, like it doesn't make sense. I suppose it's maybe like seeing yourself mirrored in other people - a trans woman wouldn't see themselves mirrored in a man, the same way I wouldn't.

I don't know I don't feel like it's that hard to understand or empathise with?

And I agree with @yeahbutnaw of course visibility matters in people feeling able to come out, whether that be as gay or trans.

I'm going to leave the thread now as it makes me uncomfortable - I don't have the authority to speak on behalf of trans women and I don't like the OP either and originally came on to say why I thought it was offensive.

@yeahbutnaw

The most obvious cause is increased awareness and acceptance.

The number of people identifying as LGB increased drastically in the last decade too.

Do you call that Rapid Onset Gayness?

And there are way more lesbians than gay men at that age are there? At the very point when puberty means girls are developing rapidly physically in a way they don't like and want to shrink back from the world. How do you explain specifically the disproportionate number of young women? Could it not be a double whammy of being gay and recoiling from the way society objectifies and discriminates against women. Or are girls just more likely to be trans?

The thing is even if you don't think GD is a mental health issue, it tends to co-exist with MH issues (I know there are debates about why that is) and for that reason alone, affirmation is just a terrible idea in many cases.

The trans person i know - female, identifies as non-binary but this seems to involve trying to look male - has spent their whole life with MH problems and leaping onto any bandwagon and getting any diagnosis they can as, it appears to me, a way of pursuing a sense of self. Them announcing themselves as non-binary didn't make me think they had GD or were trans in some mystical, inner-soul way. It made me think "another bandwagon" and I found it extremely predictable. I'm not trying to be mean, and I'm sure there are better psychological terms for this phenomenon, but they will do anything to have a new tribe to be part of and a special status.

It seems blindingly obvious to me that the huge rise in people identifying as trans involves a large number of similar situations – especially given the atmosphere in which everyone is expected to bow down to trans demands and no one is allowed to question the logic of it. Of course that's going to appeal to insecure people with low-self-esteem, confused teens and bandwagon-hoppers.

It's nothing like being gay because being gay does not involve a faith-based claim about being something you are physically not, and demanding that other people agree. It's also very different because announcing you are gay is fully reversible and doesn't involve a risk of harming your body. It's just a preference/lifestyle.

And those who want to resist the affirmation model are nothing like those who thought / think conversion therapy for gayness is a good idea. Why would a bunch of lefty feminists and lesbians, the type of people who marched against clause 28 and fought for gay rights, be that kind of person? Answer - they're not.

@WindyPudding

The thing is even if you don't think GD is a mental health issue, it tends to co-exist with MH issues (I know there are debates about why that is) and for that reason alone, affirmation is just a terrible idea in many cases.

The trans person i know - female, identifies as non-binary but this seems to involve trying to look male - has spent their whole life with MH problems and leaping onto any bandwagon and getting any diagnosis they can as, it appears to me, a way of pursuing a sense of self. Them announcing themselves as non-binary didn't make me think they had GD or were trans in some mystical, inner-soul way. It made me think "another bandwagon" and I found it extremely predictable. I'm not trying to be mean, and I'm sure there are better psychological terms for this phenomenon, but they will do anything to have a new tribe to be part of and a special status.

It seems blindingly obvious to me that the huge rise in people identifying as trans involves a large number of similar situations – especially given the atmosphere in which everyone is expected to bow down to trans demands and no one is allowed to question the logic of it. Of course that's going to appeal to insecure people with low-self-esteem, confused teens and bandwagon-hoppers.

It's nothing like being gay because being gay does not involve a faith-based claim about being something you are physically not, and demanding that other people agree. It's also very different because announcing you are gay is fully reversible and doesn't involve a risk of harming your body. It's just a preference/lifestyle.

And those who want to resist the affirmation model are nothing like those who thought / think conversion therapy for gayness is a good idea. Why would a bunch of lefty feminists and lesbians, the type of people who marched against clause 28 and fought for gay rights, be that kind of person? Answer - they're not.

What a bizarre statement. It's very close to being gay.

Both are based on innate sense of being that can't be objectively proven.

Your prejudice just makes you treat them differently.

@PearlescentIridescent don't leave the thread, I'm interested in what you have to say, and not because I want to pick it apart, but I genuinely don't understand what you mean, and I think we should all try to increase our understanding.

I am a woman, but when I walk into a room full of women I don't get that feeling of identifying with them all, maybe some visually, maybe some after talking, I feel the same around men, I'm a huge football fan when I walk into a pub full of men to watch a match those with my teams shirts on I identify with because we have something in common, but I don't identify with a whole group of people just because of their sex. Apologies if I've misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I am very suspicious of anyone who DOESN’T think that exploration of where feelings come from is a good thing.
If the feelings persist, fabulous-it’s a secure emotional base for life and for whatever changes they decide to make in their adult life. If not, and they prove to be more about ROGD, or trauma, or neurodiversity, or the flight from a pornsick world, also fabulous.

@yeahbutnaw out of curiosity why haven't you returned to the thread you stared the other day? There are a lot of good questions there waiting for you, also wondering why you haven't started any threads about other areas of feminism you were moaning we are ignoring, whilst continuing yourself to post on threads regarding trans people?

What a bizarre statement. It's very close to being gay.
Both are based on innate sense of being that can't be objectively proven.

Do you really think it's similar to say "I'm same-sex attracted" and "I am biologically a man, but somehow innately and mysteriously in no way that can be proven, a woman"?

For a start, gay people tend to have gay relationships which is a material fact - and the basis on which they were persecuted in the past. Gay rights involves having equal rights to work, get healthcare, not be persecuted, be able to marry etc same as everyone else - and that's it.

Trans rights involves demanding that people believe something on no evidence, women let males into their previously protected same-sex spaces, lesbians accept males on their dating sites, and on and on.

It's the difference between me saying I like cake, and I am a cake. It's totally, totally different.

I'm sure it is much more to do with innately identifying with the opposite sex and therefore doing what you can to fit in with your perception of that group

I see where you are coming from with this but think part of the issue is (using TW as an example) a male's perception of what it is like to be a member of the group 'women' may far removed from the reality of being an adult human female. How can any of us know what it is like to be anyone but ourselves? I think the point is more 'I don't feel part of the group I belong to on account of my sex, therefore I must really belong to the other group, it's just that my body doesn't match'. Which goes just as much for the girls (and the few adult women) who transition to be TM. And I suppose that is where non binary as an identity came from. But all Enbys are still either male or female!

An individual TW might genuinely believe that they are indistinguishable from an adult human female and I can understand that it would be upsetting to not be seen by others as they see themselves - especially if others see them as male.

It brings to mind a TW who was in the audience on Question Time some years ago, I don't recall the question asked, but this TW said they had been told they shouldn't be in the women's changing room as they were male and the TW said 'but how can they tell?' when to be honest it was pretty obvious to the casual observer. I felt a bit sorry for this individual who clearly perceived themself as fitting perfectly in the group 'women' and seemingly couldn't understand why others didn't view them in the same way that they viewed themself

@purpleboy

I'll have a go!

You might not identify with those women in the typical use of the word, as in you identify with their characteristics, or their sense of humour or background or style or anything like that, but you would know they were women biologically right?

Imagine being born a man but feeling that exact sense of understanding you were the same gender, but you weren't. It's just innate, like who you are attracted to. So that would make you transgender! I honestly don't feel like it's some crazy concept rooted in circular logic. The theory might be, because obviously if one is born male then one is not female. But that doesn't mean one cannot feel in a very real and innate sense, female. I know that is not something that is willing to be accepted here, because apparently there is no such thing as being able to identify or feel female in this way. But I don't see why it's that hard to empathise and imagine that you absolutely could, for whatever reason, feel that way. And how it must be horrible to be expected to go through your life being labelled a man even though you felt like a woman.

I know people here seem to struggle so much with that because it doesn't fit in their ideal of the fact that sex should be the only decider of whether one can can identify as female, but how can you argue ideology when that's peoples' real life experience?

How can you constantly assert that it's impossible to feel like a woman when so many people demonstrably do?

For me there are 2 answers to that specific last question:

1. You think your opinion and theory is tangible fact despite what people say are their own experiences with feeling exactly that way, which is pretty moot given that other people will simply have different opinions.

1. You think that there is no such thing as as transgenderism and it's all just a fetish/mental illness so in your mind transgender people do exist but not because they have that innate feeling but they re just misguided or LARPing as a woman for their own kicks.

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog apologies for suddenly popping in mid-discussion, but realised (after googling articles) that you are right, there has been a large rise- this article discusses it, and also references a de-transitioner study: www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A

Here's a useful view on the reasons people detransition.