Hypothetically....

[AyeKarumba]

If you had a child who was anorexic, would you say "don't worry we can fix your body because that's your problem. ....have dome diet pills now then you can get a tummy tuck & a breast reduction when you are older. That will make you happy"

Or would you ask why their world had made them feel so uncomfortable in their own body & try to help them feel happy with who they are?

A condition a person is born with, like being gay or having brown eyes.

But neither of those require the person to make any changes to their body. They can (now thankfully) live their lives as they are.

SittingAround1 I don't think there's a one size fits all approach. Some would probably benefit from being around positive gay role models, others by having the freedom to wear whatever clothes / have whatever hairstyle makes them happy.

What do you think would help dysphoric children?

I think that's a little simplistic.
Some people will tell you that if you're overweight, you will feel better if you learn to accept your body.
Other people would suggest working to lower your body fat %.
I have no doubt that both approaches have worked for people of the course of history.

These issues show the limit of empathy. I've never had that sort of psychological dissonance, so the reality is that I don't know which one is "better".
I know of detransitioners, people who felt no change post-transition and some who are much happier.
I'm sure that there are plenty of factors that affect which group you fall into.

@Theunamedcat

Anorexia and bulimia is never cured not really

Yes I can vouch for that. Therapy can help alleviate the harm greatly though, and stop you doing irreversible damage to yourself. Therapy can help gender dysphoria in the same way.

@SapphosRock

Bad analogy. Anorexia is a mental illness and can be cured with psychotherapy and / or medication. Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness and cannot be cured, no matter how much therapy a person has.

It's interesting how conditions like anorexia and body dysmorphic disorder are classified as mental health conditions, but gender dysphoria cannot be described as a mental illness any more, despite the psychological distress often described (it used to be). Nothing to do with the affirmative model holding sway at all, I'm sure. There seem to be common themes running through these conditions, but with one of them we tell young people it's incurable?

And that it's just who they are - so best to go ahead and sign up to a lifetime of irreversible sex hormones and surgery

What do you think would help dysphoric children?

Well I'm far from an expert, but I don't think telling children it's possible to change sex helps at all, especially as it's not biologically possible.

I think helping children to express themselves regarding their appearance, how they want and to not judge others who do the same.

That there is nothing wrong with not fitting in with gender stereotypes. If they don't it doesn't mean they should be the opposite sex or are in the wrong body.

That we're all individuals and you don't need to identify yourself into a category.

Not being prescribed puberty blockers.

Okay, can people live fulfilled and happy lives if they are severely anorexic with no plans to get better? I would say no.

Can people live fulfilled and happy lives if they've undergone gender reassignment? I would say yes.

So it really isn't the same.

I agree it's not ideal, other routes should be explored first and it should never be allowed for children but consenting adults should be able to do it.

My child has an eating disorder,

It's hellish,

Yes partly triggered by body image and partly childhood trauma.

But the CAMHS team look her in the eye and tell her she is deluded, they tell her she is wrong, they tell her if she wants a healthy future she needs to fight back.

An affirmation only treatment plan for a delusional teen (any delusion) is criminal.

Can people live fulfilled and happy lives if they've undergone gender reassignment? I would say yes.

But do they though? It's a lifetime of medical intervention on an otherwise healthy body, infertility and goodness knows what else.
Recovery from surgery is painful. From what I understand sexual satisfaction isn't guaranteed after either.
I wonder the same about people who have a lot of plastic surgery - is it masking an unresolved pain underneath ?
(I'm happy to be proved wrong on this)

Do you all think that anyone disagrees with trans children having access to talking therapies?

I think the only point of dispute is about whether they should be subjected to conversion therapy.

Helping a child or young adult to accept their healthy body as it is (in a world where extreme gender stereotypes are lauded) and to avoid a lifetime of painful medical intervention and irreversible sex hormones is not conversion therapy. It's compassion.

If your intent is to force the child not to be trans - it's conversion therapy. It's quite simple.

It's the exact same thing that gay people and lesbians were subjected to for decades.

I was anorexic as a teen and still suffer with bulimia 30 years on. It never really goes away. I see so many parallels with trans identified teens now. It's one of the reasons I am so vehemently opposed to the affirmation model.

@yeahbutnaw

If your intent is to force the child not to be trans - it's conversion therapy. It's quite simple.

It's the exact same thing that gay people and lesbians were subjected to for decades.

I agree with this. As a gay teenager my church tried conversion therapy on me. It didn't work.

@yeahbutnaw

If your intent is to force the child not to be trans - it's conversion therapy. It's quite simple.

It's the exact same thing that gay people and lesbians were subjected to for decades.

What is a trans child? How does that manifest itself?

Is that relevant @TheRabbitOfCaerbannog.

Regardless of the answer, trying to force someone to not be trans or gay is unambiguously conversion therapy.

Do you support gay conversion therapy? If not, why do you think it's acceptable in this case?

I think this thread is offensive because nothing has been proven yet regarding transgenderism. You describe it as dysphoria in that it stems from an innate hatred of the features of their biological gender. But you don't know if that is the cause or effect - I've heard most trans people express an innate affinity with the opposite gender which results in them not being at peace with their biological body, not that they hate their biological body first and so wish to change to the other option. The distinction is important.

I always associate transgenderism more with sexuality - as an innate state of mind based on either genetics or very early environmental factors, just as we believe homosexuality to be.

I think automatically assuming that it is borne of mental illness is not an assumption we are in a position to make. It's also not hard to see why there would be correlation with mental illness an transgenderism in my opinion, but this does not mean by any means that mental illness is causational of being trans.

And if you're really curious about the answer, you could very easily run a Google search or check a clinical textbook. But you're not curious, are you?

@yeahbutnaw

Is that relevant *@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog*.

Regardless of the answer, trying to force someone to not be trans or gay is unambiguously conversion therapy.

Do you support gay conversion therapy? If not, why do you think it's acceptable in this case?

Because of concerns that trans children would otherwise be gay if they were left alone to discover that for themselves. So many stories revolve around 'my child like toys/clothes/colours" of the opposite sex. Including Mermaid's Susie Green who gave a Ted Talk in which she explained that her husband was worried their child (born their son, now their daughter) might be gay: m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZiVPh12RQY

Plus clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have warned that they believe young people are transitioning, when in fact they are gay:

It feels like conversion therapy for gay children, say clinicians

Article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2

I don't know if

Given tolerance and acceptance of LGB people is significantly higher than that of trans people, it seems incredibly unlikely that this is true.

Incredibly unlikely. As in it's not true at all.

I don't know if anyone has a share token for The Times article

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog

Plus clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have warned that they believe young people are transitioning, when in fact they are gay:

It feels like conversion therapy for gay children, say clinicians

Article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2

I don't know if

A recent FoI request has proven that this person never even worked with GIDS.

‘Children have been very seriously damaged’ by NHS gender clinic, says former Tavistock staff governor:

www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor