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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's wrong with 'Cisgender'

999 replies

ASugar · 04/03/2021 15:49

As someone who identifies as a cisgender woman and works in sexual health, I am honestly confused as to why so many females (sex term) who identify with being women (gender term) dislike the term Cisgender?

Now I'm not here to tell you what to say, I am genuinely curious.

However, here is my opinion for those who may be interested.

Cisgender just means you are not transgender. That your sex links you your gender and you assign any gender terms (ie. Pronouns, Gender identity, sometimes gender expression but not always, etc). I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman because I know many men with vaginas and women with penises. Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

I understand that the term 'Cis' has been used to insult others which for that I am sorry.
My view is that if you can't allow trans women to be accepted in society and identified as women (without the need for 'trans' infront of it constantly) then we should be using cisgender. It is a medical term that professionals such as the NHS recognize. But I understand that is just my opinion.

I probably won't be commenting as I can imagine this will be filled with comments and I don't want to disrespect anyone's views. Just a cisgender woman who wants to understand more...

And as always I would appreciate if you respect my view as I'm going to be respecting all of yours.

OP posts:
Claudia84 · 04/03/2021 19:53

That’s interesting (and since you’re here I hope you are okay with giving your perspective)

So his girlfriend is heterosexual (which I take to mean attracted to the opposite sex) but doesn’t mind that his biological body started out as presenting as female. Did she never have a relationship with a female bodied person before? And would she have always thought of herself as hetero?

ASugar · 04/03/2021 19:55

@Claudia84

That’s interesting (and since you’re here I hope you are okay with giving your perspective)

So his girlfriend is heterosexual (which I take to mean attracted to the opposite sex) but doesn’t mind that his biological body started out as presenting as female. Did she never have a relationship with a female bodied person before? And would she have always thought of herself as hetero?

No she has always been heterosexual. And yes. They both are heterosexual.
OP posts:
vimtosogood · 04/03/2021 19:56

Would it be bigoted for a gay man or straight women to turn down a "man's vulva"?

Mockolate · 04/03/2021 19:56

Has anyone said otherwise? Transgender people exist

My comment was in response to this

Nope, being a woman means I’m not transgender

? That doesn't make sense because how do you explain that there are trans men then (ie, were born female?)
Are you saying that if you're born female you can't be transgender?

Soontobe60 · 04/03/2021 19:56

@ASugar
Being deaf is a disability. You can't self identify as a disability. That has to be medically diagnosed

Oh the irony!!! A medical diagnosis is when all the physical evidence is found and a label applied to those findings. Just like a medical diagnosis of sex. If its got female reproductive organs, if its got female chromosomes, if its got female secondary sex characteristics, then its a girl!!! So as you’ve thoughtfully stated, a medical condition has to be medically diagnosed, one cant identify into it.

ASugar · 04/03/2021 19:57

[quote Soontobe60]@ASugar
Being deaf is a disability. You can't self identify as a disability. That has to be medically diagnosed

Oh the irony!!! A medical diagnosis is when all the physical evidence is found and a label applied to those findings. Just like a medical diagnosis of sex. If its got female reproductive organs, if its got female chromosomes, if its got female secondary sex characteristics, then its a girl!!! So as you’ve thoughtfully stated, a medical condition has to be medically diagnosed, one cant identify into it.[/quote]
You aren't medically diagnosed a gender though which is why it is changeable.

OP posts:
LastRoloIsMine · 04/03/2021 19:57

A female sibling is a sister.
A male sibling is a brother.

Thats fact.

ASugar · 04/03/2021 19:57

@LastRoloIsMine

A female sibling is a sister. A male sibling is a brother.

Thats fact.

Incorrect.
OP posts:
PheasantPlucker1 · 04/03/2021 19:57

Two people engaged in a same sex (note I said sex, not gender) relationship are heterosexual.
Okie dokie. So what do you call people who are attracted to the opposite sex?

Claudia84 · 04/03/2021 19:57

Okay - so you take it to mean that homosexuality and heterosexuality are tied to gender rather than sex?
I think this is where the conflict is...

MangoBiscuit · 04/03/2021 19:57

OP, I find being labelled cis myself, offensive.
I do not have a gender.
I have rejected gender since I was a young child, throughout adolescence, and beyond.
I find the idea that someone should have to limit themselves, or behave in certain ways, because of a physical characteristic, abhorrent.
I am female, and an adult, therefore I am a woman.

So how do you think I should I define myself?

ANewCreation · 04/03/2021 19:58

I was going to post this on your other thread about women"s rights, OP, but it seems like it might belong equally as well here!

For the purposes of UK law and our rights under the Equality Act 2010, a woman is a female of any age. A man is a male of any age.

There has been linguistic creep over the last decade which is accelerating.

It goes something like this:

Transsexual, transvestite —> transgender —> trans

Gender identity disorder —>
gender dysphoria —> gender incongruence

transwoman —> trans woman —> womxn —> woman

AMAB —> MTF —> F —> female

So someone who once referred to themselves as a 'transsexual male' in 1999 might now call themselves a 'female / woman' (with a trans history that need not be declared as we see from the MoJ JR - and who might or might not experience gender incongruence)

Meanwhile, someone who in 1999 called themselves a 'female / woman' on the sole basis of their female reproductive system is now, 20 odd years later, being told that they are to identify as a 'cisgender woman', even if they don't feel they have a gender identity, in order to distinguish themselves from the rebranded 1999 transsexual male.

So, effectively, 'woman' and even very recently 'female' have, in your linguistic usage, become gender terms whereas I, like many here, and in line with UK law, will continue to use them as sex-based terms.

Women are resisting giving up the words they use to describe themselves - woman and female are categories, like chair or bed or book, which are already taken in culture and throughout time in this case to describe the sex class of all our mothers and half of the world's population.

And this is also the reason why appropriated language should not lead to appropriated rights.

NoSquirrels · 04/03/2021 19:58

It’s great you support your brother, see him as a man and support his choice to identify as a man.

None of that is in question.

But if we needed to tick a box to say whether your brother needed a smear test or a prostrate examination, we’d need to understand that your brother is actually Not-A-(Biological)-Man and we need a less clunky word for that, so we can go with the (inclusive, respectful) Trans Man or we could go with the (factual but possibly hurtful of feelings) Female.

Your brother can ‘be’ a man and be accepted as a man socially etc etc , can take hormones and have surgery. Hopefully they’re happier in themselves (possibly by not having to conform to society’s expectations of femininity.) But they can never ^actually be biologically male i.e. A Man because they are something else - A Trans Man. They can be proud of that, it’s a perfectly valid identity.

ASugar · 04/03/2021 19:58

@PheasantPlucker1

Two people engaged in a same sex (note I said sex, not gender) relationship are heterosexual. Okie dokie. So what do you call people who are attracted to the opposite sex?
People can determine their sexuality for themselves. Its not for you to determine.
OP posts:
prrtnyao · 04/03/2021 19:59

Your sister was always heterosexual. So she used to be attracted to men?

Mockolate · 04/03/2021 20:00

A female sibling is a sister
A male sibling is a brother.
Thats fact.

Unless you're trans, as the fact that trans people exist, and c**s (for want of a better word) people can be not just their bodies and identify
with the sex they are born with too shows there's more to it than that.

Claudia84 · 04/03/2021 20:00

This is why the meaning of words matter.

emilyfrost · 04/03/2021 20:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ASugar · 04/03/2021 20:01

@NoSquirrels

It’s great you support your brother, see him as a man and support his choice to identify as a man.

None of that is in question.

But if we needed to tick a box to say whether your brother needed a smear test or a prostrate examination, we’d need to understand that your brother is actually Not-A-(Biological)-Man and we need a less clunky word for that, so we can go with the (inclusive, respectful) Trans Man or we could go with the (factual but possibly hurtful of feelings) Female.

Your brother can ‘be’ a man and be accepted as a man socially etc etc , can take hormones and have surgery. Hopefully they’re happier in themselves (possibly by not having to conform to society’s expectations of femininity.) But they can never ^actually be biologically male i.e. A Man because they are something else - A Trans Man. They can be proud of that, it’s a perfectly valid identity.

I understand.

As a sexual health practitioner, I am always ensuring him and others that transgender people that I'm around take care of their sexual health. But you kinda have to treat it with caution, like someone who has been sexually assaulted may need extra assistance. That's the same for trans people because it can be incredibly difficult and painful to discuss their sex and their genitals.

I really respect that we must help care for everyone's health in the kindest way possible.

For example I have a mental illness which means for some thing I need extra support and assistance. But I understand how important it is to do these things and I hope I can provide that to those who need it.

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 04/03/2021 20:02

@ASugar

Why do you insist on calling people cis when you know that it offends them, whilst at the same time calling for people to be called a woman/man because being called anything else offends them?

It seems to me that you either can't see the hypocrisy or don't care that you are offending people.

Sidesaladofchips · 04/03/2021 20:02

I am a woman. An adult human female.
I need no other descriptors. I find the term cis a deeply insulting, silly made-up slang being passed off as socially progressive, political correctness. It's just bullshit.

If you are a man who chooses to dress in women's clothes and/or you have medical or surgical treatment to appear as a woman, you are a transwoman if you want to call yourself that but no you aren't actually woman, just as I can paint my face brown and insist I am a black person, I am obviously not.

I am a woman. Get over it.

ASugar · 04/03/2021 20:02

@prrtnyao

Your sister was always heterosexual. So she used to be attracted to men?
Reported for misgendering. He is my brother and is attracted to women.
OP posts:
Firefretted · 04/03/2021 20:02

I am neither 'comfortable' nor 'aligned' with the regressive sex stereotypes society has imposed on me from birth. 'Cis' suggests that I am and I find that grossly offensive. That doesn't mean I am trans or 'agender'; it means I am an adult human female who doesn't believe in gender and thinks sex stereotypes are bad.

PheasantPlucker1 · 04/03/2021 20:03

ASugar so far you have told us we are incorrect for correctly using the words:
Man
Woman
Sister
Brother
Heterosexual
Homosexual.

As you have admitted reporting people who dont use the definitions you alone know, can you at least now supply us with your definitions of those words?

And any others you want changed and now insist the rest of the world comply with?

Strikemepink · 04/03/2021 20:03

OP What does heterosexual mean?