What's wrong with 'Cisgender'

[ASugar]

As someone who identifies as a cisgender woman and works in sexual health, I am honestly confused as to why so many females (sex term) who identify with being women (gender term) dislike the term Cisgender?

Now I'm not here to tell you what to say, I am genuinely curious.

However, here is my opinion for those who may be interested.

Cisgender just means you are not transgender. That your sex links you your gender and you assign any gender terms (ie. Pronouns, Gender identity, sometimes gender expression but not always, etc). I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman because I know many men with vaginas and women with penises. Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

I understand that the term 'Cis' has been used to insult others which for that I am sorry.
My view is that if you can't allow trans women to be accepted in society and identified as women (without the need for 'trans' infront of it constantly) then we should be using cisgender. It is a medical term that professionals such as the NHS recognize. But I understand that is just my opinion.

I probably won't be commenting as I can imagine this will be filled with comments and I don't want to disrespect anyone's views. Just a cisgender woman who wants to understand more...

And as always I would appreciate if you respect my view as I'm going to be respecting all of yours.

@Cokie3

Why do you even need to 'otherise' yourself like that? The alternative of a trans woman is a woman. The alternative of a trans man is a man.

There is no 'cis' needed.

Is there a reason why you need to qualify yourself?

Why can't you say you are a woman? That is, after all, the default position. You give a clue what it's about when you state that women can't just be women. If trans people have to have a prefix, then therefore WOMEN are the ones who have to give up their term and add a prefix.

See that there, is the problem. Everything is changed just for transgenders. You cannot allow us just to be.....women. You have to erase or change that and add a prefix to it.

If you can't see how unfair and wrong that is, I don't know what to say to you. But cisgender is deeply offensive to women, for the EXACT REASON you have outed it. That if person who was born male can't be a woman, then NO ONE is allowed to be, without us adding a prefix. It's stamping their feet 'if we can't be just women, then THEY can't either!'

You have unwittingly demonstrated that the goal is to erase women. To remove our status, just to suit another group. You don't realise it, but you outed your goal. The erasure of 'women' as a category.

I am not a 'cis'. I am WOMAN (*and hear me ROAR!). I am the default. And I don't need a qualification nor a prefix added just because a person born with male genitals wants to be a woman.

I say to you, what is wrong with just......woman?

In deference to our recently deceased great Australian singer (and hell would boil over if you suggest to our National Hero that she change her title to 'cis woman'),

^I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'Cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman
You can bend but never break me
'Cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'Cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible…^

I....am.......WOMAN!

This! A thousand times this!

I am a woman. And I will always be a woman. And I refuse to recognise YOUR attempt to tell me otherwise.

Because it's a term that is only acceptable to those who are believers in "gender identity".
Followers of this belief are very few and we do not change language to suit any minority.
Biological sex is real, immutable and woman corresponds with female. A male cannot change sex by swallowing hormones and dressing up. He no longer wishes to be called a man and so invented the term "transwoman".
Transwomen are a subset of men. Women do not want to be referred to a cis when woman will do nicely, just to humour a small subset of men.

I have had "Cis" used against me in a conversation with another, younger woman who managed to dismiss my opinions (presented non-confrontationally initially) because I am a post-menopausal "cis" woman too old and uneducated to possibly understand that times they are a-changing.....

I considered this woman a friend, but the whole "trans" issue was apparently a great excuse to stick the boot in and display breathtaking misogyny.

It is all very regressive and divisive and allows a perfect cover for things to be dismantled and withdrawn from women in the name of inclusivity while actively excluding women who reject the ideology of extreme transactivism. Women want a fair and equitable society in general - lift everyone up together - but now 50% of the population (or whatever it is these days) are being framed as reactionary and hidebound, which is patently untrue. The same attacks are very rarely aimed at men - unless they are actively supporting and recognising women and the challenges they are facing.

And as has been mentioned previously, the "follow the money" aspect is staring us right in the face. Creating new markets to attract money and funding is part of the root of the whole issue.

Because I am a woman and that’s all that is required

@RedcurrantPuff damn I miss quoted it! Winkle! Still makes me laugh to this day. It is more funny in this house because I am the only female. So my teen son uses it to poke fun at me, "a girl, we were disappointed!"

Gender is the means by which women are oppressed.

You won't find a feminist who will identify as 'the means of her oppression.'

I don't understand the need to have to shout about what you are. It feels like people are all about the ME ME ME attention seeking approach on social media and forums these days. Does it really matter what you identify yourself as? You know you.

It just feels so rare these days to keep things private and personal. Most people don't even care about what a person identifies as, its really no-one else's business.

@ASugar

Many people have stated that they don't agree or believe in gender. Although I disagree I can respect that decision. An additional question I'd like to ask is then why do we have to know the gender of our child? Shop in stores where clothes are described by gender? Etc.

Also, why do you call yourself a woman if the term technically is a gender term. By the way, scientists and medical professionals have determined this.

It might help if we could distinguish sex and gender.

Sex refers to reproductive function. In humans it comes in two classes, male and female.

Gender refers to the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one or the other sex. The stereotypes associated with the female sex are called feminine and the stereotypes associated with the male sex are called masculine.

When we go shopping for clothes, we only need to consider the sex of our child if there is a functional difference or one sex needs clothing that the other doesn't.

Your question is fair, of course, because stereotypes are now even more rigidly enforced than ever in colour coding and design. But I opted out of that by buying clothes in the children's favourite colours and designs regardless of what the fashion of the time dictated for boys and girls. I never gave a toss what anyone thought about my kids' clothes or what assumptions they made. And the kids were happy. Same for toys. My boys had dolls, and prams, and kitchen toys to play with.

There are other contexts in which knowing the sex of one's child is much more important of course, such as their development, their medical needs, privacy and safety in public facilities, and in knowing how to consciously counteract harmful stereotypes being imposed on one's child by society.

Finally, the word "woman" is not a gender term. It is a sex designator. To understand this, looking at other animals might be useful:

Cattle - female adult: cow
Dogs - female adult: bitch
Cats - female adult: queen
Chicken - female adult: hen
Chimpanzee - female adult: empress
Donkey - female adult: jenny
Hedgehog - female adult: sow
Opossum - female adult: jill
Seahorse - female adult: seamare
Fox - female adult: vixen
Wolverine - female adult: angeline
Swan - female adult: pen
Human - female adult: woman

The word for the gender associated with the female sex is feminine. If woman was a gender designator and not a sex designator, phrases like a feminine woman or a butch woman wouldn't exist.

Just to make my point about cis being a term used to imply privilege...

A girl who's suffered fgm would technically have cos privilege.
Doesn't seem very privileged to me.
Then you've got grown adults arguing the toss with Hibo because she centres females in her fgm campaign. By extension they are implying Hibo has some sort of duty to include people who an never suffer fgm because it's based on sex.

As another poster said, it's not top trumps, but girls are often the most vulnerable people in society.

Just for balance, if the OP feels they are having a hard time here, then they really need to check out MensNet and see the struggles men are having being called "cismen". It is - literally - indescribable.

Because I am a biological woman, that's why, hth.

@ASugar, please would you tell me what you understand "being a woman" means, and what the scientific definition of "woman" is according to the scientists that you mentioned in your earlier posts. I really want to understand this.

All I understand at the moment is that some biological males apparently "feel like women", but I don't know what that means, or how they would know what being a woman feels like if they were born male. I am aware that some people like to use female pronouns, but this seems to have more to do with expression/validation of "identifying as a woman", rather than with the essence of being a woman or feeling like one.

Ultimately, does it boil down to people liking stereotypically female clothes and make-up and/or having interests in things which are stereotypically associated with women? That really worries me, because I would like us to move away from those outdated stereotypes rather than reinforcing them.

Or does it mean something else which I have not yet understood? In your world, what does being a woman actually mean?

It is simply unnecessary.

I reject the notion that there are defined expressions of gender that divide us into male or female, man or woman. These are sex terms.

Imposing the term cis on me implies that I feel that a set of society imposed gender assumptions are associated with me.

I have spent years trying to break down gender stereotypes. I think they are harmful to everyone.

I want the freedom to dress how I like, wear the clothes that I like, be attracted to the people that i like without people making assumptions about me.

There are times that I rage against my female body. I hate that female bodies are objectified by men. I hate that aging female bodies are rejected by society and that we are surrounded by social pressure to minimise our wrinkles, hide our greys and plump our lips. I hate that female voices are dismissed, mocked or talked over, that men are more likely to listen to other men.

But I don't want my daughter to feel disgust at her own body because she doesn't feel like she fits the female stereotype, I want her to be proud to be female and not feel constrained by the expectations that come with being a woman. We carry the future of our species in our wombs. We are mighty!

You said...
Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms They are not, they are sex terms.

It would make you non binary or agender Maybe.. so don't call me cis gender then.

'Cis' is a medical term that professionals such as the NHS recognize. That does not make it a medical term.

You also ask us to respect your opinion. I respect the feelings of others who do not feel the same way as I do, and if someone has preferred pronouns, under most circumstances, I would use them (the exception being compelled to call a male rapist 'she') so @ASugar, you say that I'm going to be respecting all of yours. (opinions) , do you accept my wish not to be labelled 'cis'?

I am a woman. That’s a biological descriptor. I don’t want to be defined by gender identity which is based on stereotypical concepts of what women ‘should’ like, act and be.

Cisgender just means you are not transgender.

No, it doesn't. It means that your gender aligns with your sex. 'Cisgender' is essentially a belief in biological determinism.
If you or anyone else wants to believe that for yourselves, go for it, but it's deeply sexist to insist on it for other people or to build policies around it.

Are you taking part in some sort of cissing competition OP?

Innit? Same poster, same question, different thread, different day. Same answer.

Sexed terms: male and female
Gendered terms: masculine and feminine.

Don't blame me for this inconvenient demarcation. Cite the queer theory and the likes of Simone de Beauvoir who the gender fantasists are so fond of quoting.

'Woman' means adult human female. And oddly enough, every health care professional I've ever come into contact with, particularly my ob gyns and midwives, have fortunately been able to tell the difference. I'd have harboured serious concerns for my own health and safety if they hadn't.

Men don't have foofs. As a statement this is banally, boringly, scientifically and factually uncontroversial.

I will treat trans people respectfully; I never deadname anyone and will use whatever pronouns they ask me to use. (On the subject of pronouns I've read that article about mind-deception and twisting language to fit a non-belief; ie. that humans can change sex, but am willing to concede this much in order that I don't personally cause trans people to feel uncomfortable, invalidated or disrespected). This is a basic courtesy; it's not harmful in the way that biological males taking part in women's sports is harmful. (And I also know no concessions to TRA demands of the more misogynistic variety are ever enough). But this much, I'll do.

I draw the line at completely reclassifying my own sexed reality as 'cis', or announcing 'my' pronouns (which are not really mine). I've spent most of my adult life arguing that my sex has nothing to do with the way I do my job or my interactions in the public sphere. This is particularly important (and triggering) to me as a woman who has been raped, as well as stalked and sexually harrassed in the workplace. I'm not about to concede those very necessary boundaries in order to secure others' comfort at my own expense.

YOU don't get to invalidate MY sex classification, or impose your nebulous gender fantasies, on me, without my consent. Stop calling women 'cis' - numerous voices on this platform have already told you they don't accept it.

Ask yourself OP - if you really think there can be women with penises and men with vaginas, why? What on earth made you think that?

Because it doesn't seem to me that reasoning or critical thought processes lie behind it, because despite posting a lot today, you never offer any rational explanations or convincing arguments.

I suggest that you think these things because you've been told to think them, and because you've think that accepting all this makes you woke, morally correct and open-minded. You've equated accepting this nonsense with supporting rights that do make sense, like gay rights, and failed to question what it all means.

Or perhaps you're just scared to question because you're scared to be cancelled and denounced as a bigot, or lose your job. Many people are in that situation, it's totally underestandable.

You need to think it through - how do you know someone with a male body is a woman? It must be either:

a) because they said so. But people can say they're Jesus, or fat when they're actually dangerously underweight, or able to fly. Some people say they're the opposite sex, then change their mind. And since we can't read people's minds, a man could easily say he was a woman just to get access to, say, female prisoners. How would you know? And can't you see that if you can't know, it's nopt a good basis for either social or legal rules?

or b) it's because of their "gender" such as liking "feminine" things that women are supposed to like, like make up and dresses. But there are millions of women walking around who don't like those, and who find that an offensive definition of a woman. And loads of men who know they can wear what they like and they're still a man. Sop that makes no sense either.

So how do you know?

Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

Women and men are not gender terms, they relate to biological sex. I am a woman, I was born female, grew up as a girl. I don't believe in gender and hate sexist stereotypes attributed to being female that lots of males seem to think I should adhere to. I've been anti-stereotype since I was at nursery aged 3 when girls weren't allowed to do the same things as the boys (climb on the climbing frame, football, etc.) therefore if someone calls me 'cis' it pisses me right off! My early life was dictated to by people who thought you should act a certain way if you are male or female. That's regressive, restrictive and sexist. I'm not 'cis' or 'non-binary' or 'agender'. I don't 'identify' as anything. I'm a woman.

@NotFabulousDarling

I also find cisgender offensive because it is always used as a label by people who want to assume something while they simultaneously don't want people to assume anything about them. Cisgender is a double standard.

Yy

I find this word really offensive.

Women here are careful to follow the guidelines and not use words that others have stated they find offensive even if others don't agree, don't find them so or feel are merely factual.

There was an agreement and recognition in the guidelines that as many women find this word offensive it was another one to please not be used and the moderators would support that.

However it's creeping increasingly all over the board. I don't report posts constantly, I don't try and police other people's language, but if women are going to be reported and moderated to keep very strictly indeed to words that non gc people find acceptable then this is a word that non gc people need to respect in return.

Either we agree that using language for and naming people in a way they don't choose, don't agree with, don't identify with, have consciously rejected and find offensive, is not ok and we none of us do it - or we don't, and we all just use the language we choose.

It cannot be ok to forcibly and offensively label some people but not others. And expect some people to just accept those offensive labels and being offended while other people don't have to.

I'm an adult human female. I don't need another name. Don't cis me. Gender isn't even a thing as far as I'm concerned.

[quote ASugar]@TheBuffster very interesting point.

Personally I find that being cisgender is a privilage. Similarly to being hetrosexual. To clarify, that doesn't mean all cisgender people are privilaged by societies terms, but it does mean we aren't discriminated against for not having gender dysphoria and for our gender transition. Where as transgender people are.[/quote]
I recoil against the use of cisgender (DS1 uses this term) because I dispute gender as a concept. It is binary - horribly reductive. We are born one sex or another, except for a tiny percentage of intersex people. Beyond that, gender is a construct and attaches what I see as deeply sexist, reductive attributes which as a feminist I have spent my life trying to liberate women from.

WRT your post that I chose to quote - I genuinely and increasingly don't understand the extremes of attention given to the trans movement. OK, so as you say, I lucked out by being 'cisgender' but I am discriminated against for long term MH issues which affected my ability to work full time, blend easily socially or in an office environment.

But I don't insist that all people who don't suffer from MH issues label themselves 'mens sana' to show the world what luck they have to be born without the debilitating dysphoria of depression. Why would I? Why would I insist the entire world rename itself to accommodate my own particular brand of acute dysphoria?