Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

@Winesalot

Sports- very difficult , I would imagine some form of testing before competing ? I really don’t know what the solution is. I think in some cases this might disadvantage female -born contestants ( trying to avoid the word cis apologies not sure what terminology you prefer) . At the same time I wouldn’t just blanket approach this and not allow trans women to compete- it is their human right to do it. Nothing here is black or white for me. I would never want to be the person who campaigns against their right.

Do you agree with the current move to have allowed males with these benefits to participate knowing that already women and girls have lost opportunities because of this inclusion? For example the scholarships and sponsorship opportunities lost.

And, if there was an accurate way to measure this and the result was still that the advantages could not be eliminated, would you still continue to push against a movement that effectively harmed women?

There is now a growing bank of evidence that females are incredibly at risk playing contact sport and this is elevated even more with the inclusion of males. Do you accept that scientists and researchers who are experts are saying this is a problem?

Hi pp

Just to ensure I understand - what movement that effectively harms women am I pushing against?

@ThePankhurstConnection

Why are people continuing to engage with those who have come here for the sole purpose of winding us all up and destroying mumsnet? You will not change their minds.

You are right. I'm off. I should be doing something else anyway.

Just wanted to say I appreciated your longer post Pankhurst at 14.27 - now be off!

he offensive being that it acknowledges that gender identity is real and trans women are women, as if it makes them somehow less of a someone

Gender identity isn't real and transwomen aren't women, and continually insisting these are facts is pointless.

hotbed, far right - yawn!

Only a non-Brit could think GC feminists were far right - PMSL!

The only far right we have here are almost exclusively white males who actually have a problem with trans people (and gay people, and women, and jews ...)

It’s too complex an I do agree with a separate facility but would the group affected agree with this?

Most women would agree with this. They are affected. I suspect transmen would agree knowing the dangers that a male prison would present to them. Many transwomen would not agree with this as they want to be amongst women. But really the aim should be to keep everyone safe. And a third space would achieve this. For everyone.

Thank you for understanding. It’s too complex an I do agree with a separate facility but would the group affected agree with this?
It’s one of those debates that will carry on for years to come

I wish people would acknowledge that how women feel is important too.

This 'debate' will never end - because it is founded on two very different constructions of the world; one of which is a relatively recent phenomena without much grounding in reality.

The only workable and fair solution is co-existence via third spaces, services and sports.

@yourhairiswinterfire

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This is the UK.

The religious right in America get short shrift over abortion from many of the very same people who dislike trans ideology.

How do those who support trans ideology feel about lining up with MN's feminist board who are overwhelmingly anti-abortion? Do they suddenly become right wing christian fundamentalists for agreeing with them?

How does that work? Which ones are the Baddies then?

Do heads explode or is in possible to hold a view and not automatically have to share every political view point with those who agree with over a singular issue?

Hard this one.

@ErrolTheDragon

Oh dear. Destroying mumsnet. Paranoia setting in?

Unfortunately, it's a stated aim of some trans activists (I don't mean you). They're not remotely likely to succeed, fortunately. They're more of an irritant, like horseflies.

Thank you I wasn’t aware of this. I guess they feel threatened?

Is it evidenced that the original poster is one of the group , what if they don’t want to destroy easy thing and genuinely want to have a conversation.

Would you accept a handicap system for transwomen in sport? For example a different starting time for transwomen runners to put them on an even playing field. Heavier javelins and a starting point further back for transwomen? Still does not cover contact sports or team sports? How would you make it fair for female athletes?

@Kettlingur

Bats are a part of wombats.

A huge proportion of the threads here are directed at trans women rather than the primary sources of female oppression

I believe that all males and no particular subset of males were, and still are, the primary source of female oppression. Would you like to discuss the impacts of the inclusion of males accessing women's and girls' rights?

@ElfAndSafetyInspector

When someone here says "they don't have a gender identity" they don't mean they are no-binary or agender, they literally believe that it doesn't exist. Because of this, they find "cisgender" a term used in more than 30,000 uncontroversial scientific papers offensive, the offensive being that it acknowledges that gender identity is real and trans women are women, as if it makes them somehow less of a someone.

No, this is entirely wrong. I don't have a gender identity - and goodness knows I tried - but I'm happy to accept that other people experience a strong inner sense of gender and that the thing others call gender identity therefore exists in that sense. I can't really call myself non-binary because that implies I do have an identity which is between masculine and feminine, rather like asking an atheist if they're Protestant or Catholic. I suppose "agender" is the closest definition of my own experience, and if I was compelled (and I'm not a fan of compulsion) I'd use that.

I find "cisgender" offensive because on the currently accepted definitions, it is a person whose inner self aligns with "culturally determined masculinity or femininity." It will be a cold day in hell before I, or many other feminists, accept that we have an inner self which conveniently aligns with patriarchy's interests in the form of culturally determined femininity.

That definition is Stonewall's, so it is the one widely accepted in the UK.

Stonewall are not elected.

They do not write the law.

Any definition that Stonewall make isn't legal. It has not been properly debated in a representative way. It has not binding. It does not include other vested interests and parties as it is a charity set up exclusively for one section of society only and even some parts that it is supposed to represent feel that it is failing in representing their interests hence the LGB Alliance. Stonewall's own definition of homosexual is disputed as being homophobic and is at odds with the law in the Equality Act .

Thus debate on a wider platform is not only legitimate but necessary.

Stonewall do not unilaterally define anything. Apart from their own self importance.

Women: Rebelling against men's demands since at least 30BC twitter.com/metalheadfem/status/1367356359877021697

Just to ensure I understand - what movement that effectively harms women am I pushing against?

Yep. I meant

And, if there was an accurate way to measure this and the result was still that the advantages could not be eliminated, would you still continue to support a movement that effectively harmed women?

How can you assess anyone’s argument if you only believe in one based on sex and genitals.

How can we assess anyone's argument if they refuse to provide their definitions or evidence?

"I’ve answered the question about prison places and trans participation in sports. I have been asked and I responded isn’t that related to the original topic?"

You didn't give a definite at all, you actually sat on the fence.
It was a very easy question to answer for anyone who is logical and has any kind of empathy.
It is wrong to even consider housing male in women's prisons or females in men's prisons for so many reasons, the most important one being safeguarding.
The same applies to sports, where there are huge physiological differences between male and female bodies, which becomes even more obvious when you look at men's and women's sports records. There are already multiple examples of previously average men transitioning, and then beating all the women in their chosen sport.

Is it evidenced that the original poster is one of the group , what if they don’t want to destroy easy thing and genuinely want to have a conversation.

For anyone to answer this with examples would contravene the guidelines I believe.

Yes I know that RedToothbrush and I fundamentally disagree with Stonewall on their definitions because, as you say, they run counter to the Equality Act. I agree with you

I was just trying to explain to DadJoke why it is that cis is offensive IF you accept the genderist / Stonewall interpretation of gender identity, because to me the reason it's so offensive has little to do with "being less of a someone," whatever s/he meant by that, and everything to do with the concept that women are defined by an intangible but supposedly meaningful inner alignment with culturally determined femininity.

The prevelance of gender critical feminists in the UK is not reflected in Ireland, the States or most of Europe.

And yet, there are some very quickly growing groups of women who are stating that there are conflicts in rights that need to be resolved in each of these regions. Maybe you need to take more notice.

The prevalence of gender critical feminists in the UK is not reflected in Ireland, the States or most of Europe

It does seem as if the U.K is leading the way on this. But where one gets organised and starts to challenge, others will tend to follow. Then wider public awareness and consciousness follows too.

I started as a trans ally and would have described myself as an intersectional feminist, back until about 2014 or so. I was happy to include transwomen in my feminism, I didn’t see any issue with that. I’ve never voted further to the right of the Lib Dems. Your basic issue gentle lefty with a penchant for the underdog and an interest in social justice etc.

Until I saw Caitlin Jenner pick up Woman of the Year award, and be described as “always having been a woman”, and being the sports fan that I am, I know that there was not then and is not now a women’s decathlon event. I started to read, to discuss, to question, to think, to interrogate, to test my assumptions.

It all fell apart when I pulled that first thread.

I fundamentally, completely changed my stance, and I started to,centre women again. I looked for the real underdogs: the gender non conforming children being treated with untested medications of questionable value. The teenage girls fleeing womanhood and getting their breasts and wombs removed because they’re on the ASD spectrum, or they’ve been abused, or they just don’t see themselves in this current pornified incarnation of being a woman. The trans widows whose lives have been blown up but who can’t mention it in polite society because their painful stories are inconvenient to the narrative. The sportswomen losing scholarships and medals and glory. The women in prison at risk of being sexually assaulted while the state falls asleep at the wheel.

Please, if you can persuade me back to my state of innocence and explain how all of this doesn’t happen and doesn’t matter, will you do just that, because it’s fucking horrible. Persuade me- I was there before, so if you’re right, then it should be possible to get me back there using the evidence you have.

Some background from Lachlan Stuart on the rise of the Gender Critical movement in Britain twitter.com/Lachlan_Edi/status/1270274248754507776?s=20

I'm not going to address the whole 9f DadJokes long and frankly ridiculous in places post. BUT.

There are absolutely GC feminists in the US and Ireland. Some post on this board (there have been several Ireland -pecific threads).

As more problems regarding self ID are uncovered (already happening with Ireland starting to happen in the US), I expect the number of GC feminists in these countries to only increase.

I don't know why we need to give particular validity to an American perspective of our movement? That article has however been discussed and laughed over on here before.

@ErrolTheDragon

When someone here says "they don't have a gender identity" they don't mean they are no-binary or agender, they literally believe that it doesn't exist.

As an established scientific consensus. You not believing in gender identity, or the efficacy of vaccines come to that, makes no difference at all to reality.

They are in the same camp as the religious right

Categorically untrue.

Oh, yes, then why are they sharing the same platform as the Heritage Foundation?

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/conservative-group-hosts-anti-transgender-panel-feminists-left-n964246

And here's a fun quiz for you. Which of these are gender critical feminists, and which members of the right and which do you disagree with?

"If gender identity becomes a protected class in law, there will be serious negative consequences."

"Our foremost concern is the safety and bodily integrity of the women and children whose lives would be placed at risk or ruined if gender identity legally replaces sex under law"

"increased transgender visibility and acceptance is a social contagion all over the internet.”

"Privacy concerns arise when men who identify as women can enter female-only spaces. For example, when changing for gym class, most school girls don’t want to see or be seen by boys who identify as girls. The reason we have separate facilities in the first place is not because of “gender identity” but because of the bodily differences between males and females."

"Gender theories are often founded on nothing more than a confused concept of freedom in the realm of feelings and wants, or momentary desires provoked by emotional impulses and the will of the individual, as opposed to anything based on the truths of existence."