Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

*I'm sorry that I can't respond to every 100+ comment on this thread. I have a busy work schedule particularly with university today and figured I'd start a response to all those comments asking about what nonbinary trans is with that message. It's an honest critique of someone who made an assumption about me without fully understanding nonbinary identities.

I will admit that I'm much more used to talking about gender and nonbinary genders with trans and nonbinary people, so perhaps some of the annoyance that came through in my response comes from that. It does appear that quite a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender, both of which are not true, as I have explained in a previous response to other posts, so I'll be taking that into account going forward.*

OK, fair enough. And you don't have to reply to every single post. Pick one of the most frequent comments/questions and start with that. Sorry to hear you're struggling tonight. Get some rest and come back and talk with us.

Get some rest OP. There's always someone around to talk with here whenever you feel up to it.

Welcome to Mumsnet.

Mumsnet is generally a site that likes a big old debate. There are a lot of frighteningly intelligent women on here, so if you come here and give an opinion on The Kennel section about the best way to train a puppy, you are likely to be challenged by a knowledgeable dog owner. If you go on Am I Being Unreasonable about your neighbour's parking skills, you are likely to be challenged by someone telling you you are wrong and to get a grip.
We like a debate here and we treat everyone the same in that fashion. We often disagree on all things from fashion to US politics. Some people will stand in your corner and others will ask blunt and searching questions. As long as you can back up your position and can accept that sometimes not everyone will agree, you are golden.

In short, we all challenge each other equally regardless of background, religion, gender identity or pet preference. We are entirely non-discriminatory in that way.

If you can't handle someone saying 'I disagree' then no, probably Mumsnet is not for you.

But what we don't do is threaten, doxx or harass.

We do pass around a lot of gin, support women going through shit times in life, laugh an awful lot and swear like sailors.

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

I think the vast majority of mumsnet is transphobic. They resist using peoples preferred pronouns, deadname people, and assume that trans people want access to single sex spaces to rape women

You do understand that there is a lot more to Mumsnet than just the FWR boards? Are they transphobic over on Education, The Doghouse, Bereavement, Telly Addicts, Food/Recipes?

You are also way off the mark in what you say about this board. It has been stated over and over again that we are worried about the safeguarding of vulnerable people, especially children, about fairness for women and about male violence and the fact that gender self-ID is open to abuse. These are not trivial concerns.

Please don't CIS me either

I'm glad you clarified about the 'spoons', OP. Sorry you feel that you aren't able to tackle responses to your thread, but I'm sure you are reading them thoughtfully.

The other point I raised was that you're very, very invested in gender.

Posters on this board are mostly - definitely not always - concerned with sex. Things like the impact being of the female sex has on our lives.

Gender's a wholly different thing, right?

Should women (female sex) discussing things pertaining to our sex need to consider 'gender'? I'd say yes, because it's a problem & frankly a huge pain in the arse that gets in the way of feminism.

You'd probably say that it's very important to your world view.

Can we agree to disagree, or would that make you upset/angry?

Jack Appleby wrote, far better than I could -
"I don't get how so many people have obviously not asked themselves this question...
What's more likely: That a load of life-long left-leaning LGBT-supporting women have inexplicably and uncharacteristically all suddenly become bigots or that one might be missing something here?"

Well given the definition of transphobia is not believing TWAW then MN would be , by that definition only , transphobic. Funny that a site full of women don't think people born male are women . Right surprise.

Actually I think you will also find that when push came to shove ( choosing sexual partners for example ) most men would not believe that TWAW either

@Nightinghawk if you’re new here, just coming over from Twitter, how did you know to come straight to the feminist board?

@AuntieMatter

I think if you engage in good faith discussions you will be extended that courtesy back.

Feminism is for females, so the focus in this section is concerns of female sexed people of any or no gender. Just like a paper crafts section wouldn't focus on crochet, or a breastfeeding section on gravy recipes. Unfortunately people sometimes misinterpret women talking about their sex specific needs and concerns as being transphobic which can lead to antagonism.

I hope you enjoy your visit to mumsnet.

Excellent post.

Ultimately I think it will be its demise.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

What's with all these posts

“Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic”

What rights and legal protections do trans people in the UK have that you think will be removed?

They already have the same human rights as everyone else.

Yet they demand the complete removal of all female sex based protections in law.

This.

You are also way off the mark in what you say about this board. It has been stated over and over again that we are worried about the safeguarding of vulnerable people, especially children, about fairness for women and about male violence and the fact that gender self-ID is open to abuse. These are not trivial concerns.

That's right. And that's why MN isn't the same as, for instance, Twitter
where these crucial concerns are deemed 'transphobic'.

Something must be happening today...

*budget

OP, your use of the spoon theory appears to be used as your reason not to address questions that do not align with your own views, yet you appear perfectly capable with a reasonable amount of 'spoons' to allow you post about your beliefs.

As a person with multiple disabilities (as defined by the Equalities Act), I find it quite offensive that you would use the spoon theory as your reason not to answer questions when you are still posting other stuff.

I'd have had more respect for you if you just left the thread to rest and replenish your spoons and address the questions you are evading.

@OvaHere

I'm not making any assumptions OP. I just don't believe in any of it in the same way I don't believe in religion. Although for clarity I accept that people who do believe in religion exist and it is their right to believe in it.

To be honest I just view all this stuff as a secular religion half the time.
It's what your posts remind me of, though of course you are also free to believe what you like.

👍

I see people offended by 'cis'. Are you also offended by 'straight'? Because the exact same arguments have been made by homophobes.

It's not a slur, it's a completely appropriate word to use in the context of discussing gender and sex. I'm white. I'm female. I'm British. I'm cis. Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're offended by it, the word isn't going away; it's useful and is the correct latin form opposite of trans.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're offended by it, the word isn't going away

Ok. As long as you're fine with words that you find offensive not going away too.

@bethanybiskits

I see people offended by 'cis'. Are you also offended by 'straight'? Because the exact same arguments have been made by homophobes.

It's not a slur, it's a completely appropriate word to use in the context of discussing gender and sex. I'm white. I'm female. I'm British. I'm cis. Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're offended by it, the word isn't going away; it's useful and is the correct latin form opposite of trans.

The word cis was a Latin preposition governing the accusative, meaning "on this side of", as in cis silvam (on this side of the wood). The word trans was a preposition also governing the accusative, as in trans flumen^ (across the river).

Today they are Latin loan-words whose meaning has very little to do with the original. That's fine. It's what happens with words. But name-dropping that they might originally derive from Latin doesn't magically endow them with more significance than it would if they derived from adjectives in Urdu.

@MrsBrunch

Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're offended by it, the word isn't going away

Ok. As long as you're fine with words that you find offensive not going away too.

Quite.

The definition of transphobia used to be fear, aversion, hatred, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to social gender expectations. Mumsnet mums on the FWR boards are on the whole quite non conforming to gender expectations themselves and very tolerant and accepting of these and enjoy a bit of gender non conformity.
The new gender ideology definition of transphobia is a based on Social Justice Theory (reified postmodern theory) it is different and includes not subscribing wholesale to a set of fully formed beliefs about gender, such as a trans woman is literally and for all purposes a woman. But if woman doesn't mean feminine gender to us, it just means we happened to be born with an inny, which is not deterministic of anything, except the potential to gestate a child, then we don't believe TWAW because they were born with outies (which is not deterministic of anything) and are therefore by default transphobic, whether we adore the trans people in our lives or not.
I am non binary. We all are, (or non of us are because its a spectrum). Or gender doesn't exist in any meaningful way at all. Take your pick. The only thing I can't do is reify it as a concrete immutable thing that I can't opt out of or choose to accept, because its meaningless to me. Now instead of being put in one box, we get put in 2 boxes (female and cis) when we didn't want to be in any box at all.

And inflicting words on people who neither want nor need them is just bullying nonsense.