Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

@twelly

People are born a specific race - they can't change this, it is not a choice. People are born a specific sex they can't change it. Many people believe that gender at birth can't be changed thought individuals may have traits of both genders . The point is changing either gender or sex is a conscious choice - you cannot change your race.

You can't change your sex.

You can make changes so that both your sex and race are perceived differently.

But Eteri, your child obviously does care about it and that’s why they use the women’s loos. If it doesn’t matter to you why does it matter to your child?

I'm struggling to think of something I care less about than whose using the stall opposite in a public toilet.

Generally me too. This makes us both privileged. Do you understand that other people don't have that privilege?

@DownWhichOfLate

But Eteri, your child obviously does care about it and that’s why they use the women’s loos. If it doesn’t matter to you why does it matter to your child?

Because she's a woman. Why would she use the mens toilet? Would you?

Except you clearly do care, otherwise you wouldn’t be seeking this solution for your child. I think maybe you’re unable to be objective about this because it is so personal, but just as you assert that your own child’s well-being is top priority for you and you won’t compromise it (understandable), in taking this position you are expecting every other person to put their child’s needs below yours (hypocritical).

I want to assert that I don’t consider your child is an actual and specific threat on their own, but this ideological approach puts many women and children at risk.

Eteri if that is truly the case then why havent you told your male child that?

Why do you describe it as a need for males to use female spaces, but dont think females have the same needs?

And @merrymouse makes an excellent point about privilege. Many of the situations where this stuff really really matters (refuges, prisons) are not places I am ever likely to find myself. But those service users are extremely vulnerable which is why privileged women like me need to vocalise on this issue.

@PheasantPlucker1

Eteri if that is truly the case then why havent you told your male child that?

Why do you describe it as a need for males to use female spaces, but dont think females have the same needs?

They do have the same needs and nobody is stopping them from doing so or saying they can't use female spaces.

Just thinking about how this would play out in our (high ethnic minority) school. A biologically male child in the girls loos after puberty... that would basically mean that all Muslim girls would be unable to adjust their hijabs... or (I believe) wash properly before prayer.

I guess PPs child did not go to a school with any Muslims? Or did you have a conversation with an understanding Imam?

Eteri you have just agreed females need female spaces.

So how do you defend a male entering those spaces?

WoolOfBat the old guidance was that parents wouldnt be told, and with so many girls afraid to speak up its became a huge problem where girls just wouldnt use the loo during the day.

Utterly heartbreaking.

If their had been a teenage trans woman in the school loo when I was a teenager I wouldn’t have used the loo. Especially when on my period. Just the noise of the sanitary bin opening / the rustling of the sanitary towel wrapper was hugely embarrassing to me as a teen. I don’t care now. But it would have made life quite difficult then.

I teach all my children to avoid whipping their genitals out in public

"Whipping out their genitals" is not something that I would associate with girls, because there is nothing to "whip out". girls and women are used to natural discretion in such circumstances, and do not use urinals.

You often see men taking a piss at the side of a road/motorway - in a way I've never ever seen a woman do.

They do have the same needs and nobody is stopping them from doing so or saying they can't use female spaces.

You keep dodging the issue which is that some women can't use unisex spaces.

If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem

That's a pretty harsh philosophy.

I recall when I first started my period, aged 12. It was bad enough having to deal with this fact at school, without having the further embarrassment of having boys from my class in there too. Girls are often especially bashful during puberty, and this is a natural, instinctive response.

I'm struggling to think of something I care less about than whose using the stall opposite in a public toilet

You don't need to be at all concerned because most toilet facilities are single sex.

I used the ladies' toilets in a pub in Edinburgh last year - and there was a handwritten note on the mirror. It suggested to women that if they were feeling threatened or uncomfortable with a man they'd met via a dating app or similar, they could speak to a named person behind the bar.

Women often retreat to toilets as a place of refuge or privacy.

Can you imagine being a lone woman in a mixed sex toilet block in the night time economy? I certainly can! And it is not a very comfortable thought at all.

You often see men taking a piss at the side of a road/motorway - in a way I've never ever seen a woman do.

I assume that children suffering from gender dysphoria are very unlikely to do this, and also assume that many people with gender dysphoria avoid using sex segregated facilities at all and that this is debilitating.

However, in practice, (because it's impossible to judge who is trans), the only current alternative to single sex facilities is unisex facilities, which leaves many women stuck at home.

Blanket single sex or unisex provision puts one or other group on a 'urinary leash', but we can't address this problem if we can't acknowledge the existence of different groups with different needs.

If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem

Many toilet stalls are not sealed units, and are open at the bottom. there have been numerous accounts of hand held camera phones appearing beneath them; and at one point a particularly prominent TRA posted on-line photographs of themselves in the women's toilets, without the explicit knowledege or permission of the women present.

@Justhadathought

I'm struggling to think of something I care less about than whose using the stall opposite in a public toilet

You don't need to be at all concerned because most toilet facilities are single sex.

I used the ladies' toilets in a pub in Edinburgh last year - and there was a handwritten note on the mirror. It suggested to women that if they were feeling threatened or uncomfortable with a man they'd met via a dating app or similar, they could speak to a named person behind the bar.

Women often retreat to toilets as a place of refuge or privacy.

Can you imagine being a lone woman in a mixed sex toilet block in the night time economy? I certainly can! And it is not a very comfortable thought at all.

What does that have to do with anything? Do you believe my dd doesn't go on bad dates or retreat to the toilet too? Because she does.

Do you believe my dd doesn't go on bad dates or retreat to the toilet too? Because she does.

But there’s nothing to stop the bad ‘date’ following her into the facilities is there? If it isn’t a female-only space.

What does that have to do with anything? Do you believe my dd doesn't go on bad dates or retreat to the toilet too? Because she does.

But if, for example, protected characteristics became for gender and not sex, how would that work? Who would be deemed vulnerable? There are so many different genders and gender can be pretty fluid. How would women be protected from them being disadvantaged due to their biological differences from men? Why not accept gender and sex need provisions and protections to be put under different umbrellas because gender and sex are different. Which means males (transgender or not) cannot receive protection or provision which is meant for females.

What does that have to do with anything? Do you believe my dd doesn't go on bad dates or retreat to the toilet too? Because she does

Due to your seeming mono-focus on your child ( who you have since referred to as a woman - so actually an adult now), you are wilfully neglecting to consider the wider issues that women face as a result of the various narratives surrounding transgendewrism.

it is as if you are totally unconcernd about women and girls altogether, so long as your child is feeling comfortable. in fact, you have said as much. so it can come as no surprise to you that many here, will have no sympathy for your child - when taken in the wider scheme of things.

In the wider scheme of things, this is a women's rights issue, and no matter how lovely the individual transperson may be, it really does not matter. General principles are what matters, and protecting the spaces, services and sports that it would seem that people such as yourself have absolutely no concern or consideration for at all. you even say so yourself.

Many of the users of this site are carers for people of the opposite sex (not just young children) and we need unisex spaces. However, it should also be possible to understand why other people need single sex spaces.

Policies have shown that in practice 'inclusive policies' just turn single sex spaces into unisex spaces.

We can't improve the situation if we cannot acknowledge that sex exists, even when that is painful.

Eteri can you acknowledge your child is a male in a female space?

Do you understand why some females do not want to share a space with a male?

What baffles me about trans rights is how people keep attempting to justify that when transpeople and women ask for the same thing, for transpeople its a need and for others its just laughable they would want it.

What happened to equality?

Eteri, I can see that you are getting a hard time here. I can absolutely see your point of view and think most parents would actually take the same stance in your position.

I think people can understand the struggles of people who were once known as transsexuals and have a lot of sympathy for their challenges.

I think people are a lot less understanding of the direction the concept of being trans has travelled in and those pushing gender identity as being more important than biological sex. It doesn't seem to do any favours for women or anyone suffering from dysphoria around their sex.