Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

Bigoted views are often rehashed and packaged in the same ways. It is with hindsight you can see them for what they are

Absolutely. Sexism and misogyny has indeed been rehashed and packaged in a new way.

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story.

Sorry but you can't actually know there were no issues. Girls are groomed to #bekind from a very young age even when it goes against their instincts and their best interests.

How kind would you have been to any girl who did speak up about her discomfort?

I'm more interested in whether this site is woman-friendly.

Eteri so you never stopped for a second to think of how school girls would feel being forced to share a space with a teenage male?

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story.

Did you not teach your child to be considerate to the girls in this situation? And that they might be scared or embarrassed to have someone who was obviously physically male in what should have been a female-only space? And that it might be seen as kindness from your child if they did not use such spaces, rather than entitlement if they used them regardless of the feelings of the girls?

You were only concerned that the girls were 'kind' to your child. Did you also expect that your child should be kind and considerate towards those girls? Is kindness only a requirement for female people towards male people?

Me too. It's not really possible to be all things to all people. I'm sure most trans activists think we should be referring to ourselves as "people with wombs" like someone did the other day.

Places that are considered "trans friendly" are quite often pretty hostile to women and girls. Because some of the things trans activists and feminists clash over are zero sum, ie both sides can't be accommodated as they deny rights to the other.

A lot of racist discrimination in 1960s America was not explicit - e.g. 'grandfather laws' prevented black people from voting without mentioning race. It's only possible to talk about that if you can describe the group of people affected.

A lot of sex based discrimination against women is indirect, and again, it can't be described if sex can't be defined in legislation. It's not surprising that people on a site largely focused on women (willingly or unwillingly) dealing with reproductive processes are concerned about loss of sex based rights.

However, it's easy to see how sex based segregation can discriminate against people who are uncomfortable with their sex, and deprive them of access to services. You then have a conflict of rights that needs to be resolved, but you can't address that if you can't talk clearly about the needs of different groups.

I don't see a way forward for either group if it's impossible to even acknowledge a conflict of rights.

I don't see a way forward for either group if it's impossible to even acknowledge a conflict of rights.

This.
So many people refuse to see this conflict of rights, and would rather pretend were all exactly the same and questioning that is just hatred.

I think it is vitally important to be able to discuss existing legal rights. If that wasn't possible, we would still be in a situation where women can't vote.

That said, I support current anti-discrimination laws that mean people are protected against being sacked because they are trans, denied the ability to rent a home because they are black, or prevented from getting married because they are gay. Or in any combination at all in fact.

I specifically centre the rights of women in my feminism and I do this by seeking out female voices when I am learning new things or following interests / hobbies on you tube, in the money I spend where I can support female-run businesses, and in supporting the rights of women and girls to function in this world with safety, dignity and privacy.

To do this I use a definition of women that I think is satisfyingly straightforward but some find contentious: a women is an adult human female, born with anatomical biology ordered towards the production of large gametes. The actual production or not is by the by, it's the "ordered towards" that makes the difference for me.

@OldCrone

Eteri so you never stopped for a second to think of how school girls would feel being forced to share a space with a teenage male?

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story.

Did you not teach your child to be considerate to the girls in this situation? And that they might be scared or embarrassed to have someone who was obviously physically male in what should have been a female-only space? And that it might be seen as kindness from your child if they did not use such spaces, rather than entitlement if they used them regardless of the feelings of the girls?

You were only concerned that the girls were 'kind' to your child. Did you also expect that your child should be kind and considerate towards those girls? Is kindness only a requirement for female people towards male people?

Depends on what you mean by considerate? If you mean did I teach my dd to get changed in a stall and use the toilet with the door closed, then absolutely. I teach all my children to avoid whipping their genitals out in public. That's just good manners.

If you mean did I teach my dd to prioritize the sensitives of others above her own needs, of course not. If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem. It wasn't mine, and I certainly wasn't going to make it my dd's, who was just trying to live her life and truth.

To do this I use a definition of women that I think is satisfyingly straightforward but some find contentious: a women is an adult human female, born with anatomical biology ordered towards the production of large gametes. The actual production or not is by the by, it's the "ordered towards" that makes the difference for me.

Yes, it's mine too.

did I teach my dd to prioritize the sensitives of others above her own needs, of course not.

Why do you feel is it your male childs need to use female spaces, but a female child who makes the same request is just sensitive?

To label eople bigots just because you don't agree with them is intolerant and bullying. This is not to racial discrimination as people are born into their race, also children and young people can't change their race. This is totally different

I think there is a tendency in our current society to try and medicalise any form of neurological diversity and it's expression. Yes, it is uncomfortable not fitting in with societal norms. Yes, it can feel nice and safe to have professionals come and help someone appear as if they are more 'normal' by altering their appearance surgically and giving them hormonal treatments. The hormonal treatments might even make them feel more 'normal' too, Yes, it can feel nice if new laws and rules are made to make special allowances for behaviour which is different to what is usually seen as 'normal and acceptable'.

However drugs have side effects and every surgery has risks.

What is far, far less diverse in human is the fact pretty much all people fall into one of two sex categories, male or female. It is written into our very DNA at a cellular level.

It is my opinion, some degree of neurological diversity is so universally common (in one way or another), it is normal. It cannot really be treated with medications and surgery very easily or successfully. Society has to make accommodations and provisions for different expressions of all kinds of neurological diversity. Someone having a different (gender) expression and (personal) identity to other people of their sex class is so common it is normal.

What can be harmful, however, is when society's restrictive and reductive stereotyping results in someone feeling there is a discordance between their own mind and body. They want to fit in with society but it does not feel good to them. The mind and body needs to work in harmony otherwise the ultimate result is self destructive. Except sex cannot be changed, only gender. People can be fluid and flexible and change their minds on gender. Society can change so gender norms are so loose and fragmented, they are non existent. Society can also protect against prejudice for different gender expression.

But differences between the sexes still remain, sex cannot be changed and females still need single sex provisions and protection.

If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem.

But cubicles do not always provide much privacy or protection, and many women suffer from trauma because of past experiences with the male sex. I can understand why their feelings would not be your priority, but do not understand why you wouldn't understand that both groups should be taken into account at a policy level.

This is not to racial discrimination as people are born into their race, also children and young people can't change their race. This is totally different

Not following your logic here.

@PheasantPlucker1

did I teach my dd to prioritize the sensitives of others above her own needs, of course not.

Why do you feel is it your male childs need to use female spaces, but a female child who makes the same request is just sensitive?

Because we're not the ones saying that they can't use those spaces. If you want to use them, use them, if you don't, don't, but don't try to make it our problem. As I always say, if you have an issue take it up with the management/teacher/owner/leader/whatever and they will bring it to me. We are, and always have been open to compromise, but what don't engage in is the tantrum foot stomping where it's expected we're the only ones who have to change our behavior. Compromise is a two street. We can meet halfway and find a solution that sees both girls having their needs met, or we don't meet at all.

If you mean did I teach my dd to prioritize the sensitives of others above her own needs, of course not. If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem. It wasn't mine, and I certainly wasn't going to make it my dd's, who was just trying to live her life and truth.

Can you explain why your child had a 'need' to be in a female only space? Why couldn't they use the male space?

So many people refuse to see this conflict of rights, and would rather pretend were all exactly the same and questioning that is just hatred.

This is what polarises the debate. On the gender-critical side, we acknowledge a conflict between rights associated with sex and rights associated with gender identity, and we call for that conflict to be respectfully discussed and resolved in a context-specific way. On the trans right activist side there's on the face of it an assertion that there can't possibly be a conflict of rights because everyone should accept that trans women are women and anything else is bigotry. But presumably those taking this view do actually understand that there's a conflict between rights associated with sex and rights associated with gender identity - their insistence that any mention or discussion of women's sex-based rights is a "transphobic dog-whistle" surely has at its heart the knowledge that there is a conflict.

I don't believe in gender identity and I don't experience myself as having such a thing. But I accept that some other people do, and it's core to their sense of who they are. Fair enough. I accept their reality, and their rights, which is why I want discussion and resolution of the conflict in a way that can protect members of both groups. But we don't get that reciprocated from the other side, who insist that the experience of some women, that we need our sex-based rights, isn't valid or allowable.

Respect for others' different experiences has to be a two-way street and I don't see how we're to move forward without resolution of the conflict arising from these two sets of experiences. The thing that seems to be blocking the dialogue we need in order to explore and address the conflict is the constant insistence from the extremists in the trans rights movement that women's and girls' sex-based rights have to be binned.

You made it their problem, not the other way around because they are female in their female spaces and your child is male.

People are born a specific race - they can't change this, it is not a choice. People are born a specific sex they can't change it. Many people believe that gender at birth can't be changed thought individuals may have traits of both genders . The point is changing either gender or sex is a conscious choice - you cannot change your race.

@RedToothBrush

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity, and given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality. So, if this chat forum really is about feminism, it follows that it should be trans friendly as well (ie., not misgendering, not being invasive, no negative blanket statements / stereotypes).

So you believe that there is only your definition of feminism and anyone who views it differently shouldnt speak and shouldnt debate why there are potential problems with the concept of intersectionality?

And any alternative views on feminism should be automatically silenced on the basis that you don't like them?

This type of feminism has plenty of platforms. Its dominating current politics.

I personally think thaf identity politics like this really miss the point of how women are vulnerable and this creates a hierarchy which doesn't reflect real world situations and experiences.

I also think that looks at things from gender rather than on the basis of sex really miss the point of why and how women are abused and harmed around the world - including before birth.

Strangely enough MN is unique in being targetted initially at women who have just become parents and gone through the process of birth etc. So this element of sex rather than gender being important is particularly relevant because of the period of life or their experiences of MNs user base. MN is reflective of its demographic. A demographic which is one of the most under represented politically in the UK because of the issues relating to childcare which make it difficult for women to find their political voice in other formats.

I know far more about intersectionality than I ever thought I'd need to from reading FWR. I completely agree with everything RedToothBrush says here; so I don't really find it useful or interesting as a concept.

I can see that you would like it, though.

Because we're not the ones saying that they can't use those spaces. If you want to use them, use them, if you don't, don't, but don't try to make it our problem.

Eteri your male chikd had male spaces they could use.

It isnt up to you, or your child, to say who uses female spaces. The law allows for sex segregated spaces in school, and as both a parent and a teacher, Im utterly sick of this being challenged.

So I will repeat excatly what you said back at you. If your male child doesnt want to use male spaces, dont make it the problem of every girl, parent and teacher to solve.

We are, and always have been open to compromise, but what don't engage in is the tantrum foot stomping where it's expected we're the only ones who have to change our behavior.

So you want everyone else to change to suit your child. Why should the world change for your child just because they hate their body?

I am sympathetic towards people who suffer from extreme body hatred. But the solution to that is not to pretend that they can change sex and try to convince the rest of the world that they have.

Obviously your child is special to you, and you want the best solution for your child. But you need to recognise that other people have rights too. And you're not being asked to change your behaviour, just to comply with the same rules as everyone else.

@PheasantPlucker1

Because we're not the ones saying that they can't use those spaces. If you want to use them, use them, if you don't, don't, but don't try to make it our problem.

Eteri your male chikd had male spaces they could use.

It isnt up to you, or your child, to say who uses female spaces. The law allows for sex segregated spaces in school, and as both a parent and a teacher, Im utterly sick of this being challenged.

So I will repeat excatly what you said back at you. If your male child doesnt want to use male spaces, dont make it the problem of every girl, parent and teacher to solve.

And funny enough, we don't. You want to use female spaces, knock yourself out. I'm struggling to think of something I care less about than whose using the stall opposite in a public toilet.