Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

@gardenbird48

Ok Eteri no probs if you don’t want to engage. If you change your mind and want to address my questions that would be great but no worries if not.

Maybe someone else could help me out with what cbd is? I’m not aware of that term (other than the legal cannabis products)

Childhood body dysmorphia.

while there are plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights

You mean women's rights. Zero need to add 'cis' to a word that describes 99%+ of females who have no with their biology or use it to try to shoehorn males into the female category.

Telling us it's 'cis' women and transwomen as if these two sets of people are somehow part of the same group with the same needs and concerns.

Yes, our concerns are on protecting female sex based rights. Because our sex is the the cause of our oppression and this is the FWR board.
Women, transmen and non binary females are included in this.

So people looking in from the outside might want to do a bit of reflection on why certain people seem to want to destroy this forum

Why if TWAW why are they so hellbent on removing the legal rights and protections of females? Something that would cause harm to women?
Is it because as males they have no need of these female sex based protections?They are a barrier to them. They don't need them so we can't have them and they must be destroyed.

They want to destroy MN because they can't control the narrative here so it must go.

Pesky disobedient women.

*no issue with their biology

Eteri did your child use of loos and camps require all other girls having to give up their sex segregated spaces?

Do you understand why that is an issue?

Obviously your child should have spaces that accommodate them, but so should every child.

It's incredibly sad that people wish to destroy this forum.
Mumsnet really helped me getting ds assessed for disability, which is one way it can be used. The wealth of knowledge from Sen parents in our case proved better than the pediatrician.

Similarly, on the fwr board, I've learned so much from intelligent women: lawyers and doctors for example. A place for them to share their knowledge is absolutely vital when other platforms won't let women's voices be heard.

To try and destroy the sharing of knowledge like this is downright sinister and it annoys me how discussing women's rights, which we are bloody entitled to do on a feminist forum puts the rest of the site at risk.
Mumsnet is for parents primarily and we have the right to express our opinions and concerns.

Yes, it's really telling, isn't it. Almost like some of them aren't interested in listening to trans people at all. Here either to scold or to promote a male supremacy agenda.

Maybe not interested in listening to all trans people, maybe just in listening to a particular set of trans people.

It’s a mystery as to why. 🤔🤔🤔

@PheasantPlucker1

Eteri did your child use of loos and camps require all other girls having to give up their sex segregated spaces?

Do you understand why that is an issue?

Obviously your child should have spaces that accommodate them, but so should every child.

I don't know.

It was never communicated to me, because to be honest, it wasn't any of my business if they did. I advocate for my dd, I expect everybody else to advocate for theirs if they have to, and for the school/camp/boarding house/extra curricular/halls/whatever not to make it my problem until it is my problem.

Of course a third space should be available. The problem is the powerful lobbies don’t want that. They will not get behind it, because it doesn’t afford them what they want

Yes, but because the most important consideration for those lobby groups is not primarily one of personal safety and dignity, but about wider ideological imposition.

The thing is third spaces is the only possible, & most equitable, solution; and the wider and general public will be able to see this.
It would be clear that it is not women's groups that are being unreasonable or hateful; nobody is denying the transperson's right to exist or to have safe services and provisions; they just want the same for themselves.

The wider ideological push would become quite evident, very quickly - in the face of a reasoned solution. This, therefore, has to be an important strategy going forward.

Eteri so you never stopped for a second to think of how school girls would feel being forced to share a space with a teenage male?

It was never communicated to me, because to be honest, it wasn't any of my business if they did. I advocate for my dd, I expect everybody else to advocate for theirs if they have to, and for the school/camp/boarding house/extra curricular/halls/whatever not to make it my problem until it is my problem

I think this response falls firmly into 'as long as I am allright' camp. Very egoncentric and one of society's main failings it seems, to never give consideration to others.

I'm sure South Africa up until the 1980s and America into the 1960s had such third spaces for non white people

Yes, & racial segregation accompanied lack of civil rights for black people.This is not the same issue, and it is incredibly tiresome that people keep using this sort of example, as it reveals a total lack of nuanced understanding.

Everyone has equal civil rights in the u.k, regardless of ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation or class background. And women, of whatever colour, ethnicity or class have the right to single sex spaces, services and sports. Indeed many BAME women would not be able to partake in much of society if this were not so,

I agree sanluca. Also teaching young males its fine to enter female spaces and cross boundaries without consent, its up to the girls to fight to stop you if they dont like it.

Bigoted views are often rehashed and packaged in the same ways. It is with hindsight you can see them for what they are

in what ways are single sex spaces, services and sports "bigoted"?

Do you have any awareness of the struggle of women over decades for such provisions, and are you aware of the ways in which millions of women around the world still suffer on account of not having such provisions?

that you completely ignore women's rights and requirements for various safeguarding measures, and for equity in sporting competition, says more about your bigotry, maybe. that you don' consider women's needs, voices and vulnerabilities worthy of consideration.

@PheasantPlucker1

Eteri so you never stopped for a second to think of how school girls would feel being forced to share a space with a teenage male?

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story.

I cannot and will not sacrifice my child's safety and happiness on the alter of an ideology. It's not an option in my mind, it's not something that has ever been up for debate, and whatever organisation we've been dealing with has been more than accommodating. I go in, say we need to abc, can you give us that? Yes, cheers, thanks a lot. Occasionally more of a descion is needed, especially when there's a sleepaway aspect, but organizations are typically highly helpful and move heaven or earth to get dd what she needs.

As we know, guidance suggesting that girls couldn't object to males in female spaces or they risked being convicted of a hate crime, and it wasn't necessary to consider their privacy and dignity needs at all, was removed by several local authorities and the CPS when there was the threat of a judicial review.

Ref Childhood body dysmorphia.

Body Dysmorphic Disorder: Treatment

Treatment for body dysmorphic disorder includes cognitive behavioral therapy and medications such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). In severe cases, when a child or adolescent is in danger of harming herself, psychiatric hospitalization may be required. Cosmetic surgery is not believed to be a successful treatment for body dysmorphic disorder. At best, cosmetic surgery may provide a temporary fix, but it does not treat the root causes of the disorder. Following cosmetic surgery for a perceived flaw, a child or adolescent may begin obsessing over a new perceived flaw in her appearance

I’m sorry to hear of your child’s distress Eteri. This seems to be a psychiatric condition so I hope you were able to access the appropriate treatment- I realise that resources are limited in this area.
I don’t understand the link between that condition and the transitioning but I’m guessing a doctor made the recommendation to change the type of treatment? (I have no idea if your DC has undergone any medical transition but I’m guessing there must have been some).

Don’t feel obliged to answer but I would be interested if you wanted to.

Until Mumsnet addresses this, my answer would be a firm "No". Mumsnet is not a safe place for transgender people or trans parents

If women are so dangerous, why on earth would you suggest vulnerable people sharing should an intimate space with them? Wouldn't you be better off campaigning for equal provision so that all could have their feelings, comfort, safety, and dignity requirements met?

All couched up as "critical debate". Just change trans for the word gay or black in any of the commentary on Mumsnet and the feminism board to do with trans people, and you can see how bad some of it truly is. (And this is the stuff that the mods do not delete first!

Gay men and black men were not demanding access to women's spaces, services and sports. What they sought were equal civil rights. which they now have. Everyone now has the right to marry, to vote, to employment protections and so on.

great posts from kaineus - glad you delurked. I am also not in the UK - welcome (still RTFT)

@PheasantPlucker1

GardenBird48 personally Id consider it a productive convo if I could get an insight, understanding, empathy into others way of thinking.

I have changed my opinion on many things on these boards due to decent debate.

But that never, ever happens here as the language some use changes constantly, words have no meaning to some TRAs and can be given as proof of an attack, based on a meaning of that word they have made up, and wont share. It happened last night with one who was after twitter screenshots.

We can not have any conversation with people who insist words mean whatever they want them to mean, they wont tell you what they think the words mean, but they can and will use those new meanings as evidence against you.

I think stopping calling every person who supports trans rights publicly TRAs would be a start on that journey. Words do indeed have meaning.

I think stopping calling every person who supports trans rights publicly TRAs would be a start on that journey.

I "support trans rights". But as a feminist, I centre women and girls and recognise that we have a clash of competing rights in certain circumstances. If you prioritise trans rights over women's rights you (general you) are a trans rights activist.

Disgusted did I say everyone who actively supports trans rights is a TRA?
Nope.

So why ignore everything I said to clarify that?

This is why no conversation isnt productive. Theres no attempt to even try and engage with any of the points made

I'm sure South Africa up until the 1980s and America into the 1960s had such third spaces for non white people

There is no reason to segregate spaces by race.

There is sometimes reason to segregate spaces by sex.

Conflation of sex and race implies a belief that the difference between races is as consequential as the difference between sexes, which many would call racism.

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story

Obviously as a parent of a vulnerable child, we can all understand that.

But you also need to be aware of the fact that these days all sorts of people transition, and for different reasons and motivations; including many middle aged men who, for example, have spent a life time cross dressing, are heterosexual, usually married with children. They often have no intention for full medical transition.

And the push for self ID means that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, and must therefore be given full access to women's safe, intimate spaces, services and sports.

It is understandable for you to be concerned for your child, but you must also understand that what is at stake for women everywhere is the erosion of all that they have fought for; even to the point of no longer being free to use the language that is natural for them to use about their own experience in a female body.

I think stopping calling every person who supports trans rights publicly TRAs would be a start on that journey. Words do indeed have meaning.

I support trans rights. I also support women's rights.

TRAs are the people who campaign for removing women's rights in order to give special privileges to people who identify as transgender. I will continue to use the term TRA for anyone who appears to fit this description.