Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

I' am here to have a discussion in I like to get different points of view, (eg why do trans men want to get pregnant when it's the most womanly thing you can do) I'm genuinely interested.

I don't think we can get much further on that than the link upthread about Freddy Mcconnell. Kainius already mentioned not understanding this.
Perhaps for some their avowed gender identity, what's going on in their heads, is not entirely in line with what their bodies say?

The biggest elephant on the thread is children.

The narrative around identities and changing sex is affecting how they see themselves and their bodies, accompanied by effects of ingrained misogyny, sexism, objectification of women and their bodies and also toxic masculinity.

Taking pb and cross sex hormones leads to irreversible damage in mostly vulnerable children and children with mh and autism.

A young poster on another thread mentioned that girls seem to be rejecting she/her simply so as not to be seen as overly girly.

When we are at a point where the word she and her is seen as embarrassing or worse by young girls, we've failed them.

It's sexism and ingrained misogyny. If it was ok to be female and a woman there wouldn't be a war over pronouns. And actually I wouldn't mind putting she and her on emails, except I won't be forced by what I see as another force of patriarchal and misogynistic crap.

So, No.

The impact upon children and young people is being ignored . Adults can make their own decisions but the current trend has see young people make like choices when they aren't ready. I believe these young people are being manipulated and really fear for their future. This can't ignored, to say it is hate speech if anyone questions this Ignores the rights of what I believe to be the majority.

The biggest elephant on the thread is children.

Yes. Of course, one of the things that probably distinguishes this board from other platforms is that MN is not only a predominantly (not exclusively) female site, it's primarily a parenting site. Not all members are parents but that's the focus. On the feminism board, we may say we prioritise women - but actually the needs of children are often uppermost.

So people looking in from the outside might want to do a bit of reflection on why certain people seem to want to destroy this forum.

@Diaryofamadwoman

I had a far more accepting view of transwomen before transactivism radicalised me against gender ideology.

Forgive me, but this reads a lot like "I had no issue with trans women before they started asking us to treat them fairly".

Hi, OP. I'd imagine this is a difficult place for a trans person to post - while there are plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights (and debate about when's appropriate to medically transition trans kids, which for a parenting forum I think is understandable) there are also a lot of sly dogwhistles and subtle(ish) anti-trans sentiments flying about, and a HUGE amount of sneering comments about pronouns, and a frankly odd amount of focus on bathrooms.

There are also more people than you'd think who are vocally supportive.

On the whole though, if you can swerve the horrible stuff there are some brilliant people on here, some very funny and heartfelt and interesting threads, some exceptionally knowledgeable people, and generally like any other forum it can be pretty good.

The narrative around identities and changing sex is affecting how they see themselves and their bodies, accompanied by effects of ingrained misogyny, sexism, objectification of women and their bodies and also toxic masculinity.

Absolutely, and if I remember rightly, children and young adults have quite a different view of their bodies. They are at the stage of their lives where they mostly feel invincible- hence greater risk taking etc. It us not until you are older and have been around the block a few times that you realise the benefit and importance of a healthy body free from pain.

I mentioned to my daughter about a girl we know who chose to have a double mastectomy very recently. I said ‘what if she changes her mind?’ My daughter said ‘well she can just get implants’. At first I was horrified that response but then I realised that I may have said the same at her age (14).

I do think there are external influences like avatars/photoshopping etc they are exposed to all the time but also I think that their brains are programmed to cope with significant changes to their body in puberty.

If you imagine introducing the concept of puberty to a young child - your voice will change, you will grow bigger hips and boobs, you will grow body hair and start bleeding from your vagina and feeling rotten once a month forever. They are significant physical changes that their brain is designed to accommodate. It is not a huge leap for them to be introduced to the possibility of other significant changes and that is where the social and social media influence can take effect.

That’s why it is so important for adults to prevent children from making permanent changes because their brains are programmed to be too accepting of the idea of change and it will later on that they are likely to regret. I used to think it would be great to have a nose job (my nose is fine) and have my legs broken and grown longer (I heard you could get that done) as I felt that they were too short (they’re not). If someone had entertained my ideas and said, ‘yes that’s feasible’ I think I may have been pushing to get it done...

At my age now, having broken an ankle when I was younger which now gives me the ability to predict damp weather, I’m very glad I didn’t go for having both my legs broken and extended .

Forgive me, but this reads a lot like "I had no issue with trans women before they started asking us to treat them fairly".

therocinante

Can you expand on what you mean by transwomen asking us to treat them fairly please?

What was intrinsically unfair about the way they were treated previously?

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

But no one is dead naming or misgendering people to their face. If they're doing it at all, which again I'm not sure that they actually are; it's when they're talking about a person that's not there. I think it's pretty odd and controlling and self obsessed to try and control the language people use about you when you're not there. That's bonkers.

The only time I've seen it, is when a poster is talking about their own child and they start the post with saying I use the correct name and pronouns to them.

Its the equivalent of asking people to constantly refer to god as if he's there, they believe in him etc. If you dont believe in God why should all your language and interactions with the world reflect that? I don't expect atheists to pretend to Christian's that a.) They believe God exist when they don't and
B.) To us language that shows they believe in God when the Christian is not even there for the conversation.

Can you really not see how authoritarian that is?

I think also it must be difficult to refer to somebody you have known for a number of years by a different name and pronouns, and with the best will in the world people are probably going to slip up at times, at first.

I had not thought about that before gardenbird. Really interesting post.

Forgive me, but this reads a lot like "I had no issue with trans women before they started asking us to treat them fairly".

Contemporary trans activism is not based on fairness but on pitting rights against those of women, and demanding that "acceptance" hinge upon the obliteration of any definition of women that allows us to have rights based upon our biological sex. And it is activism that is often accompanied by threats: death threats, rape threats, trying to get people sacked from those jobs. I'm sure that many trans people do simply want fairness and acceptance, but that isn't the general tenor of activists or indeed of organisations like Stonewall which actively campaign for the removal of women's single-sex spaces and go into organisations misrepresenting the law.

while there are plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights

Women's rights. Don't you think people should care about women's rights?

Can you expand on what you mean by transwomen asking us to treat them fairly please?

Can you also link to where they "asked" to be allowed into female spaces where women do not want the presence of the opposite sex?

I would like to make it clear that my comments do not apply to each and every individual. But a particular faction that is not kindly disposed toward women. I owe them absolutely nothing.

I advocate for women and children and their legal and social protections. Anyone who has a problem with that needs to examine their moral compass.

while there are plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights

My post at 01.11 is. I think, one that plenty would agree with - briefly, the inclusion of transmen in feminism.

Feminism is for females. Not males. Of course, feminists can additionally support other rights - sexuality, disability etc etc - and that can include trans rights. But there shouldn't need to be any apology made for feminism protecting the sex-based rights of females.

As the mother of a transwoman, no. I've spoken about it on here before, it went around in circles for three days, and I've come to the conclusion that it's a waste of my time.
I don't expect to change anybody's mind, but certain posters are not even open to hearing about the daily experience of being the parent of a transperson, they just want to tell you how mentally ill your child is, how uneducated the doctors who advise you are compared to them, and try to pursue you to take a stand against your child using the toilet.
I think there is a real cognitive dissonance there about how these are real people, not some ideological bogeyman out to spite their rights.
I've had posters get really mad and act like I've personally punched their daughters in the face because I'm doing the exact same thing they claim to be doing in prioritizing my dd's by not forcing her (fully passing) to use the mens toilet.
I've had posters tell me what medical complications my dd has.
So no, I don't think mn is a safe place for trans people or their loved ones. I don't talk about having a trans dd on here any more because it's a waste of time and energy. Same shit, different day.

Forgive me, but this reads a lot like "I had no issue with trans women before they started asking us to treat them fairly".

To me, it reads like: ‘I had no issue with treating transwomen fairly until compelled speech and acceptance with exception came along’

@waterlego

Forgive me, but this reads a lot like "I had no issue with trans women before they started asking us to treat them fairly".

To me, it reads like: ‘I had no issue with treating transwomen fairly until compelled speech and acceptance with exception came along’

This.

Acceptance WITHOUT exception, that should say.

think there is a real cognitive dissonance there about how these are real people

Yes. We are real people too.

Bored of the whole debate tbh. Trans women are trans women. End of. Why is sport or changing rooms anything to do with human rights?

@waterlego

Acceptance WITHOUT exception, that should say.

Oh that’s what I read and understood of course!

Real people who don't have to put ourselves second. Or our daughters and mothers. Female spaces are for females. If people truly "pass" as the opposite sex then no one will know they aren't. They generally don't.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Real people who don't have to put ourselves second. Or our daughters and mothers. Female spaces are for females. If people truly "pass" as the opposite sex then no one will know they aren't. They generally don't.

And on the right we have exhibit A.