Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

Oh that’s what I read and understood of course!

We’re all so familiar with it by now!

Eteri - I'm sorry that's been your experience. Could I ask, was that specifically on FWR or another board - the LGBT children's board for instance?

I've no idea what the tenor of the latter is, but it seems to me that if MN is to be judged for 'trans friendliness' it shouldn't just be on the basis of the one board which is specifically focussed on women's rights.

And on the right we have exhibit A.

Well no. Just another woman whose life doesn't centre around your family. We have our own issues, and our own needs. And many women need the privacy and dignity of a single sex space.

@ErrolTheDragon

Eteri - I'm sorry that's been your experience. Could I ask, was that specifically on FWR or another board - the LGBT children's board for instance?

I've no idea what the tenor of the latter is, but it seems to me that if MN is to be judged for 'trans friendliness' it shouldn't just be on the basis of the one board which is specifically focussed on women's rights.

Feminist board, lgbt, yabu, once even in education - it's the same shit no matter where it's located. The post I qouted above, I could literally written that out word for word. The script never changes an inch, it's like pressing the button on a talking doll and at this point it's just boring. There's no productive conversation to be had on the topic here.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And on the right we have exhibit A.

Well no. Just another woman whose life doesn't centre around your family. We have our own issues, and our own needs. And many women need the privacy and dignity of a single sex space.

Okay, but that was literally my point. Your life doesn't revolve around my family, but then you go into a rage that mine doesn't revolve around yours and we instead go about our lives in a way that serves us.

I think there is a real cognitive dissonance there about how these are real people, not some ideological bogeyman out to spite their rights

I'm sure on a personal level most people have empathy for the suffering of another......However, this is a wider political issue and as such deals with, and treats issues, at a societal level.

Whether we like it or not, and who really does, but individuals get caught up in wider political and social movements or trends - and inevitably their specific cases get drowned out.

The post I qouted above, I could literally written that out word for word. The script never changes an inch, it's like pressing the button on a talking doll and at this point it's just boring.

We're all individual people with feelings. Yet you expect us to blindly accept what you think and what you want. How about you practice what you preach?

For example, take Covid.....there have been many casualties of the crisis, both in terms of hospitalisations, deaths, and also job losses, mental health issues and so on.......Meanwhile everyone has a view on which way is best to proceed - because wider social concerns come in to play that go beyond the individual. As individuals we can get caught up in wider social events and movements.

Okay, but that was literally my point. Your life doesn't revolve around my family, but then you go into a rage that mine doesn't revolve around yours and we instead go about our lives in a way that serves us.

I'm not going into a rage, I'm simply pointing out that other women aren't here to serve your child's needs. We will continue to campaign for the rights of women and girls, who you talk about so dismissively.

There's no productive conversation to be had on the topic here

It is difficult to find agreement when two very different ideological and practical understandings of the world collide.

This board focuses on women's rights.

i've always concluded that the best, most productive solution to everyone's needs is third spaces, services and sports.

Your life doesn't revolve around my family, but then you go into a rage that mine doesn't revolve around yours and we instead go about our lives in a way that serves us

Third spaces, services and provisions would deal with the immediate personal needs of everyone.

I'm sure on a personal level most people have empathy for the suffering of another......However, this is a wider political issue and as such deals with, and treats issues, at a societal level.

This. It isn't personal, and it isn't about individuals. It's about women's rights, male entitlement to take from women and societal misogyny. It's about the need for women and girls as a sex to organise as a political class and have a movement which centres them.

i've always concluded that the best, most productive solution to everyone's needs is third spaces, services and sports.

I agree. Taking things from women and girls simply isn't fairness.

@Justhadathought

There's no productive conversation to be had on the topic here

It is difficult to find agreement when two very different ideological and practical understandings of the world collide.

This board focuses on women's rights.

i've always concluded that the best, most productive solution to everyone's needs is third spaces, services and sports.

Yes and I have ever disagreed with that either.

Of course a third space should be available. The problem is the powerful lobbies don’t want that. They will not get behind it, because it doesn’t afford them what they want.

Of course young individuals, in particular, should have support in navigating what must be an extremely difficult pathway, and should receive compassion and kindness where possible and appropriate.

However, women’s protections must prevail. And they do, by Law. It 100% needs to be kept that way which is why we have to keep talking about it, agitating and making sure our needs (and those of vulnerable women and children) are served too.

If there is tension there then of course it needs to be resolved with as little harm or hurt to anyone as possible. But one side doesn’t get to demand all concession to the direct cost of the other.

*never

MN is as a previous poster said a site for parents , it is MumsNet, of course other people can join it's an exclusive club. The concerns are of parents who are worried about these issues for future generations. There is a difference between being "friendly" or tolerant to agreeing with or supporting a view.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/04/trans-activists-moaning-mumsnet-behaving-like-kids/

From that Telegraph piece:

The Twitter argument that played out this week had a strong “Kevin the Teenager” vibe, with young activists kicking the skirting boards and accusing Mumsnet of being a total fascist, while Mumsnet adopted the firm-but-fair tone of a mother inwardly rolling her eyes to heaven. As a mum myself, I would be tempted to laugh, if it didn’t feel so close to home.

this is great.

Third spaces, services and provisions would deal with the immediate personal needs of everyone.

Exactly. But some people just don't want that.

And it's not just about toilets. To take just the example of accommodation at the university I work at.

There used to be single sex accommodation blocks. These were primarily used by students from conservative cultural backgrounds, whose parents were often reluctant to let them go to university at all. The gender lobby campaigned, successfully, to make these single-gender. As a consequence, no one used them any more and they ended up becoming standard accommodation. So that's a group of students whose lives could have been changed by going to university who are no longer able to benefit from that.

Secondly, we sometimes have to used shared bedrooms for students. Given that the university allows students to use whatever facilities suit their self-defined gender, it is only a matter of time before a female student finds herself in a shared bedroom with a male student. Her only choice at that point will be to leave, because the university's policies will not be on her side.

Secondly, we sometimes have to used shared bedrooms for students. Given that the university allows students to use whatever facilities suit their self-defined gender, it is only a matter of time before a female student finds herself in a shared bedroom with a male student. Her only choice at that point will be to leave, because the university's policies will not be on her side.

I've said before on here, when I went to university halls I had just come out of a very fucked up violent and abusive relationship with a very controlling young man. I couldn't have handled sharing with a male person, it would have been the last straw.

I'd imagine this is a difficult place for a trans person to post - while there are plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights (and debate about when's appropriate to medically transition trans kids, which for a parenting forum I think is understandable) there are also a lot of sly dogwhistles and subtle(ish) anti-trans sentiments flying about, and a HUGE amount of sneering comments about pronouns, and a frankly odd amount of focus on bathrooms.

The 'odd amount of focus on bathrooms' (I assume you mean toilets) is due to the TRAs who often try to steer the discussion in that direction rather than all the other things the regular posters on here want to discuss. I don't know why TRAs are obsessed with toilets, but let's be clear about where most of those posts come from.

plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights

Why do posters insist on using cis word

"if your feminism centres men its not feminism" fixed that for you

My feminism does include all women. All adult human females, as well as all girls. Every single female, however they present or identify, comes under the protection of my feminism and I advocate for them on many levels.