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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

790 replies

Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 15:22

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

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Winesalot · 04/03/2021 12:16

Well, lots of us don't want to be "cis"women and get called that anyway.

In fact, I have just been told on another thread that it doesn't matter at all that we wish not to be called c*sgender. And that the poster will continue to do so.

Cokie3 · 04/03/2021 12:18

This, folks, is what we are fighting for. This is why we have to prevail. There is NO other choice. This is way, as exhausting this misogynist fight is, rest if we must, but we must NEVER give up. This is what HATRED OF WOMEN is about in 2021.

I don't know about any of you, by my foresisters didn't fight for my future in vein, and I won't let future generations of women down. We all in?

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?
ErrolTheDragon · 04/03/2021 12:18

I just got told that if I don't have a gender identity, that means I'm transgender.Grin

Cokie3 · 04/03/2021 12:19

Ugh, typos.

*This is why

and

*but my foresisters

Winesalot · 04/03/2021 12:31

yes, Errol.

So does that elevate our needs in the priority list? Because if we do not agree with the gender being assigned to us by someone insisting on calling us c*s, we default to being 'trans'.

Imagine the effect of us all doing just that? And while still insisting that women and girls' rights be preserved for females.

Wbeezer · 04/03/2021 12:51

Can I just but in to say how grateful I am for threads like these, so many articulate posters making perfect sense. I just ventured onto reddit and got a permanent ban from the XXChromosome subreddit for saying the kind of statement often made on here. Made me appreciate Mumsnet.
Carry on... Goes back to stirring cauldron (making soup).

FuckingFabulous · 04/03/2021 13:07

Oh, the rage. 😡

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2021 13:15

@ErrolTheDragon

I just got told that if I don't have a gender identity, that means I'm transgender.Grin
Love this logic.

Can we all be gender critical, as this magically means we become trans thus meaning all gender critical discussions and discussion groups are automatically above all the ludicrous and dramatic accusations of 'hate'? Does this mean we can all join trans groups and represent trans interests and shout about how gender criticals are trans and be accepted without exception and no debate because we are who we say we are?

'Boing' said Zebedee!

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2021 13:17

Or would that be bad faith?

( hmmm )

PotholeParadies · 04/03/2021 13:43

I find it very difficult to articulate my personal relationship to gender and my secondary sexual characteristics at the same level as other posters, but according to various modern definitions of trans, I am... trans.

I think calling myself trans would be appropriation so I don't. I prefer to personally reject the whole framework that there is a wrong way to be a female human and to say, "no these expectations of females are sexist and unfair". Hence
... feminism. I don't think measuring myself against the standards for women, finding myself wanting and giving myself an alternative label based on that would be good for my self-image.

I am an adult female human. The name for the female.of our species in the Anglosphere is woman. Anything I do is something women do, because I'm doing it. Playing football, knitting, enjoying building flatpack furniture, burning through the bottom of the saucepan or being unable to do two things at once? All my own traits, therefore they are traits women have, not evidence that I am some other type of human.

But if anyone should persist in dividing the world into cis and trans, then I'm trans and I get to tell self-identified "cisgender women" to stop, right?

Izzy24 · 04/03/2021 13:55

I am feminist.

Which is why I am happy to describe pregnant people as exactly that if they wish me to. And I am happy to use the term chest feeding if that is what they wish.

I am not happy to describe myself in terms other people wish me to use. So I am a woman.

The End

womanity · 04/03/2021 13:55

Interesting pothole
Sex: Female
Gender: Feminist

MrGHardy · 04/03/2021 13:57

They are. They don't tolerate any hate or abuse.

However, if you think that in order to be labelled "trans friendly" one must unequivocally and ubiquitously do everything the trans lobby demands, then no, they aren't.

Nightinghawk · 04/03/2021 14:39

@LouHotel

What existing rights are being debated? Seriously question because the equality act has been in place since 2005.
The question of existing rights being debated as presented above and in Twitter was a hypothetical questions, but I suppose the question should be answered more fully and more seriously.

I probably should have mentioned this before as well, but I'm based in the US, so there may be some discrepancies in the discussion as a result of that.

In the US, it is legal in most or many states to forcibly evict, refuse healthcare (emergency medical, etc), fire from employment, refuse housing to anyone who is LGBTQIA+. There's also rampant discrimination on matters of credit, public spaces, public services, federal programs. This tends to happen more often with trans people, particularly with regards to healthcare, and there are plenty of articles where trans people have been refused care by medical professionals for instances all the way from car accidents (see Tyra Hunter) to cancer treatment (Jay Kallio). There's dozens of reports from trans people of being denied for surgeries, appointments being cancelled once doctors learn they are trans, and, if they are offered services, often they are delayed, improperly diagnosed, or otherwise experience medical malpractice.

In some states and local municipalities, there are laws or restrictions against teaching LGBTQIA+ history, including and with particular emphasis on trans history. People are generally gagged from expressing themselves in gender, sex, and sexuality within schools, sometimes with punishments of being fired (for teachers and staff) or suspension and in-school punishments (for students).

A lot of these situations revolve around "religious freedom exemptions," pushed by the far right, which are currently being touted as the main opposition against the US's Equality Act which would add gender and sexual identity as protected categories along with race, ethnicity, sex, etc, and thusly provide equal protections to the entirety of the LGBTQIA+ community for all of the above. As it stands, Title IX also covers sex based discrimination, which the courts have determined to also cover gender based discrimination since discrimination of trans people always involves consideration of their sex as well as their gender identity; for similar reasons, Title IX has been used to protect gender non-conformity, sexual identity, and other sex related discriminations. However, there has been recent debate on this as well, debate which will not only hurt trans people if followed through, but the entirety of the LGBTQIA+ community.

It should also be noted on the basis of work place discrimination and firing, that many states in the US are "right to work" states, meaning that employers do not have to provide reason for firing a person, making it all the more difficult for us to fight this discrimination in a court of law.

All of this is considered as "debate" because there are some laws that provide protections or are interpreted as providing protections, but interpretation really only works when or if the court (or people, more generally speaking) in question has interpreted said laws as protecting these minorities. Generally, these protections are unevenly distributed as well.

Tl;dr -- Rights to housing, employment, freedom from discrimination, equal and equitable healthcare access, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and more are being debated. These are covered (in theory) through interpretation of existing laws, but can still be subverted by the insertion of other laws or guidances which limit interpretation in one way or another.

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NewarkShark · 04/03/2021 14:44

That’s awful @Nightinghawk but in England and Wales trans people are protected against that kind of discrimination by our Equality Act.

ArcheryAnnie · 04/03/2021 14:47

I haven't RTFT, but @Nightinghawk, have you gone on all the other forums that have banned lesbians for saying that they won't date anyone with a penis? Or those forums that have banned women who have experienced sexual assault who have written about their need for single-sex spaces? Have you asked them if they are "lesbian-friendly" or "woman-friendly"?

I ask because it's only Mumsnet, which allows posters with a wide range of views (including plenty of transpeople), and which encourages open and honest debate of every sort, which tends to get asked this question.

ArcheryAnnie · 04/03/2021 14:48

@ErrolTheDragon

I just got told that if I don't have a gender identity, that means I'm transgender.Grin
I have often said that I am happy to be called cis, on condition that for 50% of the time the same speaker refers to me as trans, because both are equally not true!
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 04/03/2021 14:50

@womanity

Interesting pothole Sex: Female Gender: Feminist
I also like this 👏
ArcheryAnnie · 04/03/2021 14:55

It should also be noted on the basis of work place discrimination and firing, that many states in the US are "right to work" states, meaning that employers do not have to provide reason for firing a person, making it all the more difficult for us to fight this discrimination in a court of law

I agree with you entirely, NH, that the situation is awful - but it applies to everyone. Women can get fired because they got pregnant, or because they wouldn't wear heels, or because they rejected the CEO's advances. Lesbians can be fired for being lesbians. Anyone can be fired for saying that biological sex is real, and that same-sex attraction is valid.

This isn't an attack on trans rights. This is an attack on worker's rights - on everyone.

And as for the "right-wing" thing - most right-wingers, even American ones, aren't usually in favour of lesbian and gay rights, never mind women's rights. And it's women's rights, and lesbian and gay rights, which are under threat from gender ideology. And, of course, the person who has put most money into promoting trans rights is billionaire Republican Jennifer Pritzker, who before transition was in the US military.

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2021 15:03

I probably should have mentioned this before as well, but I'm based in the US, so there may be some discrepancies in the discussion as a result of that.

This is the UK.

Our law system is different.
Our laws are different.
Our culture is different.
Our society is different.

We are not the US. We don't pay for healthcare through insurance. No one is denied healthcare if they need emergency care.

Perhaps you should focus on injustice in the US or something you know stuff about rather than making ill informed assumptions about the UK.

I have to stay that someone trying to deny my political voice/rights /freedom to speak in the UK on a UK forum when they from the US is pretty spectacular in arrogance.

bourbonne · 04/03/2021 15:06

Oh, you're based in the US! Look, I don't want to be rude. But there's a real element of cultural imperialism about this movement. The US is one country. This is a British site (with posters from and/or living in other countries too, but by and large British). Our culture, history and laws are not the same as yours. It's a shame that Twitter flattens these distinctions and nuances. I hope you find it interesting, anthropologically, to read through our forum and get a sense of where we, specifically, are coming from.

PotholeParadies · 04/03/2021 15:12

@womanity

Interesting pothole Sex: Female Gender: Feminist
Aint that the truth.

If I'm not being told I'm "cis" on twitter, I'm being explicitly told I hate gender non-conforming women. 'Scuse me!

I'm a feminist! At its essence what has feminism ever been but a refusal to conform to the status quo and a campaign for change? They said "women can't study medicine". The Edinburgh Seven refused to conform and attended an anatomy exam in spite of male students pelting them with mud. Our great-grandmothers won the vote. The put on bloomers so that they could ride bikes. And on and on and on.

And people tell me feminists hate people who don't abide by sex-stereotypes? Where have you been all these years?

OwBist · 04/03/2021 15:12

@ErrolTheDragon

I just got told that if I don't have a gender identity, that means I'm transgender.Grin
How exciting! Did they tell you which one of the 100+ you are? It sounds like they've used one of the those "Mostly As, Bs or C's" quizzes from Just17. Do you get your own latter if the alphabet to define you?
Nightinghawk · 04/03/2021 15:13

@RedToothBrush "Dont lecture about why intersectionality is better and everyone else should just follow it blindly because xe comes on and tells people who have been here for over a decade that they are stupid and bigotted and should stfu and change what they believe cos xe says so."

I don't think I said anything like this, but I'm sorry if my tone came off as such 😅 The reason I made this post was specifically to see what answers I'd get here. I would never ask people to blindly follow something some random internet person said -- which is the same reason I'm here and, as you say, debating a bit here and there when something really stands out to me.

I do think intersectionality is better because, in the long run, it helps to uplift the experiences of more than one subset of women and helps women feel more free/safe/included in how they express themselves, experience life, etc without feeling "othered". Taking into account the multitude of experiences women as a whole global community go through helps imo push against reductivism which in the past has produce White Feminism, which in turn has left out many marginalized groups from the gains feminist movements have made. But in the end, that's my take. Me saying that is merely my opinion and my input in this part of the debate.

I also have not said that anyone here is "stupid" "bigoted" or "should stfu." I can perhaps understand how there might be a misunderstanding with "bigoted," since I consider some things transphobia which others do not. But I certainly am not going to tell anyone to stop talking or that they're "stupid" for having a different take than I do. Once again, everyone has many different experiences! Those experiences inform different opinions, some of which we'll define/label differently or generally disagree on. And, so long as no one is getting hurt, that is all good.

On changing beliefs -- sometimes that happens during the process of debate, but hey, only do that if you want to or you see evidence contrary to your previous belief. I'm not going to tell you what to believe. I'm putting my input out there into the void that is the internet, and anyone who wants can decide if they even want to consider it for a microsecond. By all means, toss my input into the trash and forget about it if that's what you see fit to do. Believe what you want.

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AdHominemNonSequitur · 04/03/2021 15:14

In addition to emergency care, which is a given, after they have waited their turn (which admittedly is quite a wait now because of the 4000% (yes, 4000%) increase in gender clinic referrals over the last few years), every aspect of a trans persons care, including top surgery, bottom surgery, lifelong medications and any psychological care will be funded in its entirety by the National Health Service. The only contribution from the patient would be a prescription charge for medications, which is waived if you are on welfare.

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