Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

It's not just slight discrepancies between rights in the UK and the US, there is a huge difference between the laws. All the major rights you mentioned already exist in the UK, people have protections for sex, race, gender reassignment (which starts as soon as the person announces they intend to undergo gender reassignment), disability, and sexual orientation.

In the UK the trans right which is being demanded is self-id to legally change sex. I think it's important to note that trans people have pretty comprehensive rights in the UK.

OP unfortunately America is extremely backward in most areas compared to other first world western countries. The lack of health care, the lack of welfare, the lack of a basic minimum wage that every other advanced nation has. The absence of any real worker rights.

Women have suffered from the exact same laws, you aren't any different. What you you are referring to is a lack of protections for Americans, in general.

Transgender people in America are not suffer any more than heterosexual, homosexual or male or female. You're acting like the laws ONLY affect transgender people. They don't.

They affect everyone.

In Australia, and in NZ and in Canada as in the UK (and probably Sweden etc) workers are protected. Well, at least a darn site more than in America. What you have, is a system in America geared to support the rich, and penalise the poor. What you have, is a system where wait staff are forced to rely on tips - of all things (not done in Australia, no one tips here, no need to, minimum wage is around $18 an hour), just to survive. You have a very archaic system.

And it needs changing, but unless Americans rise up, demand universal health care like all first world western countries have, and demand a basic minimum living wage like all first world western countries have, and demand basic worker's rights and employment protections like all first world western countries have, nothing will change, America will not enter the 20th century, let alone the 21st.

Yes Twitter is American based.

So much of the toxic side of this debate has been enabled by American Media Giants which have silenced feminists because they do not recognise the law protections that we have in the uk relating to sex. The terms and conditions of twitter ONLY refer to gender. This is a problem which should be dealt with tbh.

This being a UK website based in England reflects our law. It is right that we can exercise our concerns over how we are being denied protections as stated in our law on a website in England.

Do you understand how an American telling us x, y and z based on what its like in America is bad when its got fuck all to do with UK society and law and by their own admission they know nothing about UK society and law looks like.

Perhaps you should go and check how things are different to the US rather than assuming its the same in the UK.

Being ignorant is not a good look for someone professing to be progressive...

If you want to lobby and talk about rights of women across the world, you need to address the elephant in the room. Gender is western centric and priviledged.

No girl can identify out of FGM. No unborn baby girl can prevent her own abortion by declaring her gender is male. No woman can stop being raped in war crimes because of her gender identity. Women and girls can't avoid having to ask permission from her father or husband in certain countries. Etc etc.

These are all down to sex. Gender identity is utterly meaningless.

We need protection on the basis of our sex. Failure to understand why this is important leaves us at risk.

Just because the US also fails to protect on the grounds of sex, isn't a problem for UK politics because we are not the US.

We have our own battles to fight.

@ArcheryAnnie

It should also be noted on the basis of work place discrimination and firing, that many states in the US are "right to work" states, meaning that employers do not have to provide reason for firing a person, making it all the more difficult for us to fight this discrimination in a court of law

I agree with you entirely, NH, that the situation is awful - but it applies to everyone. Women can get fired because they got pregnant, or because they wouldn't wear heels, or because they rejected the CEO's advances. Lesbians can be fired for being lesbians. Anyone can be fired for saying that biological sex is real, and that same-sex attraction is valid.

This isn't an attack on trans rights. This is an attack on worker's rights - on everyone.

And as for the "right-wing" thing - most right-wingers, even American ones, aren't usually in favour of lesbian and gay rights, never mind women's rights. And it's women's rights, and lesbian and gay rights, which are under threat from gender ideology. And, of course, the person who has put most money into promoting trans rights is billionaire Republican Jennifer Pritzker, who before transition was in the US military.

I'm also in the US OP. Will you be addressing this post?

Sorry derail ...hopefully it'll be the last one I need to buy but I'd like to get a face mask in suffragette colirs fabric ... does anyone know of a good seller, say on Etsy for example? When I say good seller I mean someone who isn't also selling Death to TERFS t shirts or ripping off another woman's designs

No one, regardless of if they are transgender or not, or black or asian or whatever, regardless of religion should be penalised. No one. And I give you my sympathies and best wishes to advocate for change, but your country seems so adverse to adapting to western first world civilisation, so adverse to helping poor people or to even having basic health care or a basic standard of living, and considering how ultra extreme your politics are (Democrats would be seen as conservative in Australia, Bernie Sanders is the only true leftie - that's have extreme far right your politics is compared to western first world nations), I don't like your chances. Your nation is so polarised, that any advocacy for progress I honestly don't see happening within the next 50 years over there. I sincerely hope I am wrong. But your problem is not with us women, it's with your own country's culture. I hope and pray for your sake Biden is able to bring about some change, but even he seems too much to the right of the Democrats. If you're not politically active, please consider doing so, America needs people like yourself to lead a complete overhaul of your country's culture and democracy.

I think my head is going to explode. The comment that stood out for me was: "The beautiful thing about words is that there are many definitions to them." Er, no mate. Have you ever encountered a dictionary? You know, that large book containing the exact, agreed, complete meaning of a word. You might want to get hold of one and look up, for instance, what the word woman means.

Its funny because anyone who has followed the evolution of the 'gender critical' movement in the UK and debate on feminism chat on MN more widely in an objective way is aware that its roots come from left wing and has a notable working class representation.

Whats also telling is these women frequently come to MN to say how they feel excluded from left wing representation and feel politically homeless. They express a distaste for the ring wing political parties in the UK for a variety of reasons.

And yet we get lazy twitter SJW explaining how feminists in the UK are aligned with the US religious christian right. And how they don't like human rights or inclusivity etc etc.

This is despite many having decades behind them campaigning (successfully I might add) on these type of left wing liberal ideas.

The cognitive dissonance is astonishing. But a sizeable chunk of it is coming from American interlopers who know fuck all about uk politics, political movements and political debates.

Believe what you want.
You can't just believe what you want. I could believe I am the Queen of England but the facts state otherwise.

"Intersectionality" is nothing of the sort if it ignores the major axis of oppression worldwide which is being born into the female sex.

I've seen very little to suggest that most people claiming to be "intersectional" in their approach aren't simply using it as a buzzword or a thought terminating cliche to shut others down.

I reject gender, it is all stereotypes. I reject cis as a label for my gender, I don’t subscribe to the notion of having a gender, it is a meaningless construct. I won’t put pronouns in my bio or email signature or wear a fucking pronoun badge.

I am left leaning in politics but have no party to vote for anymore. I am afraid for my daughters’ and nieces’ future in sports and society if we don’t protect female spaces.

I am raising my children to reject gender as a concept..

I'd like to ask Nightinghalk how old they are.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Sorry derail ...hopefully it'll be the last one I need to buy but I'd like to get a face mask in suffragette colirs fabric ... does anyone know of a good seller, say on Etsy for example? When I say good seller I mean someone who isn't also selling Death to TERFS t shirts or ripping off another woman's designs

Not keen on supporting Etsy because they don't support women. This site do a suffragette facemask.

radicalteatowel.co.uk/face-masks/suffragette-stripes-face-mask-with-elastic

"I probably should have mentioned this before as well, but I'm based in the US, so there may be some discrepancies in the discussion as a result of that."

You realise this is a UK-based forum, right?

It sounds like there are a lot of injustices facing your community in the US but the same is not true here in the UK.

I'm not saying we're perfect and that trans people don't face prejudice etc here but at least their rights are actually protected in law.

There are not "discrepancies" in the discussion. You're asking us to debate whether campaigning against existing laws is transphobic and literally no MN threads have called for that. It would absolutely be transphobic. I don't know what US citizens are campaigning for?

A better question would be "do you think that, denying trans people additional rights beyond those already in UK law, that erase the rights of women as stated in UK law, is transphobic?"

What we do do is campaign to clarify the meaning of the existing laws. As you'll have read, @Nightinghawk, the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act are not particularly well-integrated with each other, and both contain potential ambiguities. That's why there are quite a few crowd-funded judicial reviews ongoing, seeking to clarify how these laws are translated into policy. Many of us believe that lobby groups have misinterpreted the law (or its intended spirit), and influenced public bodies to implement unlawful policies.

Thanks Ova for that recommendation. They donate £1 from every order to food banks for every mask sold too.

I hate the reference to Mn as transphobic. I don't think it is.
I can't see that being concerned is the same as being transphobic. Concerned about women's rights. Concerned that it's a very sad and lonely path a trans person goes on: wanting something they can't have. Are they a woman? No.

What does Cis mean, and Non binary trans annnd Xe/Xem?

MN is extremely respectful of trans rights and deletes posts and has moderation rules, unlike plenty of other forums. Try a forum with mostly men speaking freely, plenty of real transphobia and zero consquences.

@Nightinghawk as you’re in the US, could I ask your view on my concern that US feminism is so focussed on rights for trans women (and being vocal about how transphobic the UK is), that other rights for natal women based on their sex, such as the attack on abortion rights etc? And the fact US maternity tights are generally fairly shit.

I get the sense from social media that these issues are rather taking a back seat in favour of trans issues, but that’s what I glean from social media. Be interested in your views on the ground.

Also whether or not you believe that feminism does need to have a big focus on sex based oppression, and that trans women’s rights should not be a bigger focus than these?

I honestly think if I was living in the US under Trump, I would probably have been out there marching, chanting trans rights are human rights. I would have had reservations on women in sport and prisons, but I think I would have overlooked them and focused on the ways in which transgender people were being discriminated against.
Over here, I think transgender people have a fairly comfortable provision in law, even more so in the way it is interpreted, and it is definitely woman who are currently more in need of protections.
I think the same frictions exist in the US, but they are very much buried under a steaming pile of ultra right wing conservative Christian injustice. I genuinely think if I lived in the us, I may well mistake the very different concerns of U.K. feminists as a similar kind of transphobia.
It is not the same thing at all.

[quote NewarkShark]@Nightinghawk as you’re in the US, could I ask your view on my concern that US feminism is so focussed on rights for trans women (and being vocal about how transphobic the UK is), that other rights for natal women based on their sex, such as the attack on abortion rights etc? And the fact US maternity tights are generally fairly shit.

I get the sense from social media that these issues are rather taking a back seat in favour of trans issues, but that’s what I glean from social media. Be interested in your views on the ground.

Also whether or not you believe that feminism does need to have a big focus on sex based oppression, and that trans women’s rights should not be a bigger focus than these?[/quote]
To clarify I mean things like right to compete in women’s sport, access to women’s spaces. Not the right not to be denied housing for being trans etc, which I understand affects all trans people not just women (which I am appalled by and would also be out marching against this).

@Nellodee

I honestly think if I was living in the US under Trump, I would probably have been out there marching, chanting trans rights are human rights. I would have had reservations on women in sport and prisons, but I think I would have overlooked them and focused on the ways in which transgender people were being discriminated against. Over here, I think transgender people have a fairly comfortable provision in law, even more so in the way it is interpreted, and it is definitely woman who are currently more in need of protections. I think the same frictions exist in the US, but they are very much buried under a steaming pile of ultra right wing conservative Christian injustice. I genuinely think if I lived in the us, I may well mistake the very different concerns of U.K. feminists as a similar kind of transphobia. It is not the same thing at all.

Yes! Round of applause for all of this!!