Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

"A thread just the other day - someone posted about their trans son and the thread constantly referred to as "OP's daughter."

I have a daughter. If she turned round one day and told me "Mum, I'm a boy", I'd be very grateful for a place - a safe space, if you will - to discuss this without meeting with an ideological wall of "your child is a boy now, there is nothing further to say".

I am close to two people who have trans-identified children in their families.

1. My friend had a son, "John", who declared some years ago that he was now "Jenny", a girl. At first, my friend was in shock and couldn't accept this. During this time, I gave her emotional support and a space to talk about "John" and what "he" was doing. After a while, my friend decided that this wasn't going to go away any time soon and that she may as well accept it, at least outwardly. She began to speak of "Jenny" and "her". So I do too. My role in this situation is to support my friend, not to make a point.

1. My cousin is grandfather to "Amanda", who now wishes to be known as "Andrew". My cousin loves his young grandchild a lot, and considers the "Andrew" business to be a response to certain real-life events and difficulties. He will use "Andrew" in their presence, but when talking with me he switches between "Andrew" and "Amanda". So I do too. I just follow his lead. Because again, I don't see much of this teenager. It's my cousin who I have a relationship with, and I respect his thoughts and feelings on this family situation.

Were I to meet either young person now, I would address them in their preferred way, out of politeness. But I'm clear in my mind what a classic rapid-onset identity crisis looks like, and I have great sympathy for all involved, which is not the same thing as belief.

But no one is dead naming or misgendering people to their face. If they're doing it at all, which again I'm not sure that they actually are; it's when they're talking about a person that's not there. I think it's pretty odd and controlling and self obsessed to try and control the language people use about you when you're not there. That's bonkers.

The only time I've seen it, is when a poster is talking about their own child and they start the post with saying I use the correct name and pronouns to them.

Its the equivalent of asking people to constantly refer to god as if he's there, they believe in him etc. If you dont believe in God why should all your language and interactions with the world reflect that? I don't expect atheists to pretend to Christian's that a.) They believe God exist when they don't and
B.) To us language that shows they believe in God when the Christian is not even there for the conversation.

Can you really not see how authoritarian that is?

WellityWellityWellity

great post!

"A thread just the other day - someone posted about their trans son and the thread constantly referred to as "OP's daughter."

I have a daughter. If she turned round one day and told me "Mum, I'm a boy", I'd be very grateful for a place - a safe space, if you will - to discuss this without meeting with an ideological wall of "your child is a boy now, there is nothing further to say".

I have a niece who is a transman. She is still female, which is why I use female pronouns on here. Using male sex-based pronouns to describe her would be dishonest.

@WellityWellityWellity completely agree with your post

In regards to dead naming.

There is often a reason to mention a person's previous name when searching for resources. I have not seen any dead naming outside of that on MN. It is always in relation to discussing someone's previous work, stated opinion, or reference in media.

Or are those stating it is never ok in the belief that a person has started a completely 'new slate' so to speak and that people should be able to leave all that behind.

Not great for safeguarding if that is the case.

There was a case in Ireland where this was taken to the enth degree with a lawyer arguing that it wasn’t only the defendants name that was dead, but also the life of the defendant (ie shouldn’t be tried for crimes committed when using ‘dead name’ as that wasn’t them any more). How they argued this with a straight face I will never know.

It is critical that we can know peoples past identity /name (unless they have been given a new one by the courts for some other reason) otherwise when filling out an application form to join the police (for example) Liquorishtoffee may well say ‘no’ to the question ‘have you a criminal record’ - however Proto-Liquorishtoffee may well have been convicted and served time for being the Battersea Cat Burgler.

There are a few trans posters who contribute regularly on MN. the conversations are civil and interesting. So yes I believe it's a friend,y place, most of the time for all. As a pp said some people aren't so nice but to be fair you get your fair share of nastiness on other boards thrown at other posters. It's just people.

When I've been involved in a discussion around these issues and I've got a bit less civil it's because posters either plop along to literally just say "god, it's so transphobic here" with no evidence or examples. If I was going to make accusations at another I'd darn well screen shot or copy and paste. Otherwise you just look like a numpty trying to stir the pot and get people's backs up deliberately. For example I was accused of something similar on a thread yesterday and despite me asking several times the poster STILL hasn't come up with what I said or did. That's not cool.

While trans issues should not be limited to FWR, if a thread is there remember it's posters who are centring women and girls first. I don't believe feminism should be intersectional. Adult human female is as complicated as it needs to be. We shouldn't have to apologise for this.

@Ikeameatballs the rest of your replies are like a word soup.

I feel it's like the term 'dazzle with bullshit'. Some people (talking rhetorically here now, not referring to anyone in particular) come across as if they've swallowed a thesaurus and are trying way too hard to sound intellectual but I genuinely, genuinely believe that if you asked them to explain the definition of these words they use, they wouldn't know where to start. I honestly believe some people use these 'buzzwords' and 'talking points' because it's 'in' but have no idea what any of them actually mean. I genuinely wonder how many people who refer to themselves as such and such even know or understand what the words mean.

Also it is very common to use "they" when referring to trans people on here, even when the person goes by she, or he.

I do this. For one, because there are non binary and gender fluid people like Pip/phillip Bunce and Eddie Izzard who fluctuate between girl and boy mode, depending on their days/moods. Should I check with them how they feel that day before using a pronoun?
I also refuse to keep a list of all the neo preferred pronouns for people so by using they I treat everyone the same that have different pronouns than their sex based ones.
Lastly, when discussing the impact of mixed sex spaces and sports, it is vital to indicate what sex someone has. As MN doesn't allow that and it makes discussion really difficult, I refer to all transpeople with they.

Oh and I don't do compelled speech

@Nightinghawk, I hope you are feeling better today.

Yesterday you said
The beautiful thing about words is that there are many definitions to them

Hell no! The beauty of words is that they have meanings which are understood by a group. This allows the group to communicate, share ideas, create, explore and build.

If your version of Summer means ‘a warm season’ and my definition means ‘a green hat’, you asking me about my plans for summer will go badly awry.

Being clear about our language and terms is essential for communicating with one another.

Why should they have to be?

Your whole message can be boiled down to, “I come to you in bad faith.” Why should anyone engage with that hostility.

In terms of pronouns, I'm stealing what Michelle wrote as I'm not even half as articulate -
///

The right to use certain pronouns

Which has to be balanced with compelled speech. Very complex issue, there is a balance of people's rights here because if you want one form of speech to be respected on one side because of feelings, needs and identity, then there has to be mutual respect that the person on the other side of the conversation has feelings, needs and identity too.

///

@AbsintheFriends

Just catching up with this thread with my morning cuppa.

I believe our recent visitors from Twitter are answering Mimmymum's rallying cry to expose Mumsnet as a vile cesspit of transphobia to the Marketing bods at Soreen, convincing them that they would be accepting the devil's coin if a feminist ever purchased a maltloaf.

I feel the tactic may have backfired. If Soreen follow the trail to this board what they'll see is page after page after page (the other thread filled up within a few hours) of women putting their points across patiently, respectfully, with some humour and an unassailable barrage of facts and evidence.

The thing is, it's always dazzlingly obvious on these threads which side has the better quality of evidence-based argument. Which side has robust stats from respected sources. Which side looks to clearly definable terms on which to base law. And which side relies on faith-based belief, obfuscation and co-opting the struggles of other protected groups. I think that most people wandering in here for a read from outside the trans-twitter bubble wouldn't see any transphobia, just good questions intelligently posed.

As is so often the case, I'm not sure that Mimmymum has done those she seeks to represent any favours at all.

Ah, I wondered what had started it. I wasn't sure if it was a deliberate distraction from the JR or the Hate Crimes Bill or the toilet consultation, etc. I'm quite amused that it's about fighting over malt-loaf 80% of grocery shopping is done by women but maybe Soreen won't care about alienating their main demographic or aligning with sexist and abusive postings on Twitter or with a group that deliberately doxed women.

Ah, I wondered what had started it

It was MN themselves who said "people are welcome to come and debate on the boards and "see for themselves", and that they welcomed discussion.

I missed this earlier ...

convincing them that they would be accepting the devil's coin if a feminist ever purchased a maltloaf.

Excellent

It was MN themselves who said "people are welcome to come and debate on the boards and "see for themselves", and that they welcomed discussion

Which has proved to be the case.

Pages of well-argued, intelligent discussion. Many myths busted and points of confusion explained. Lots of posters taking the time to set out how and why they hold the position they do. Thanks Mimmymum!

Hi Op.

I hope you are feeling better this morning.

I wanted to address your point about people here saying transwomen are not women.

I am afraid I would be one of them. I have nothing against transwomen and am friends with a few rather wonderful transwomen who are great people.

So why would I say transwomen are transwomen not women? A few reasons.

1. If Transwomen are women it renders the word utterly meaningless. Woman is a term for adult human female. Every other animal has this word and it is a useful descriptor. If transwomen are to be counted as women how can we communicate specifically to females without the use of dehumanising terms such as uterus owners

I also feel the mantra transwomen are women is a distraction to stop society addressing the real transphobia. By chanting a mantra we fail to acknowledge the real challenges facing transwomen. Transwomen who don’t pass will be facing systematic discrimination. We can not tackle this by forcing them into a different demographic who are facing sex based discrimination. This reeks of passing the buck and does nothing to solve the problem of male violence. Attitudes towards homosexuality have changed vastly over the years (rightly so) and homophobia is viewed as offensive (again rightly so)

If we say Transwomen are women we remove any ability to fight transphobic because we aren’t identifying them as their own different but equally valid demographic. How can this help change attitudes? It just reinforces the view that transpeople need to be invisible.

Finally if we say transwomen are women then how can we address the clash of rights? I haven’t been able to attend a smear test for years due to sexual assault. I am trying to get the courage up but I will need a woman and by woman I mean female. A transwoman no matter how lovely she is could trigger PTSD. My health is already at risk due to my fear of this even with a woman if this right couldn’t be guaranteed how is this justified for the thousands of rape victims?

I do wish you well OP however you identify I just hope some kindness towards women isn’t considered bigotry.

Why would you expect Mumsnet to be trans-friendly? You can expect that it will remove hate speech, but "friendly"? There are trans groups and sites which are centred around the needs of trans people; this site (especially the feminism chat) is centred around the needs of females. If you're a trans person who is male, or a trans person who is female but not feminist, you may well not find the boards "friendly". I don't expect an anglers' forum to be vegan friendly. I don't expect a Christian forum to be atheist friendly. Those just aren't my spaces, so I don't go there. We all need to respect the fact that people who aren't like us exist, and need their own spaces. We don't have the right to demand that every space accommodates us.

@LouHotel

What existing rights are being debated? Seriously question because the equality act has been in place since 2005.

Hi OP,

This question has come up a lot. Could you give your views on this please?

This is a good point by GinUnicorn ; I haven’t been able to attend a smear test for years due to sexual assault. I am trying to get the courage up but I will need a woman and by woman I mean female. A transwoman no matter how lovely she is could trigger PTSD. My health is already at risk due to my fear of this even with a woman if this right couldn’t be guaranteed how is this justified for the thousands of rape victims?

I have brought up similar points to MRAs/TRAs on Facebook previously.

The answer, is that they really don't seem to care. They just don't care. We are 'collateral damage' to them in their ideological driven pursuit. I really see that it is a politically and ideologically driven agenda with many of them, and they really don't give a damn how it affects women. That's the bottom line. I saw an excellent post by someone earlier this year or last year (will have to try to find it) that posed the question of the transwoman with intact male genitalia going to women's spas, where there are women who have been raped, victims of Domestic Violence, and even Hijabi Muslims who go there and remove Hijab and relax, who was suing these clinics for not waxing around his balls.

This was a women's clinic. And this self-IDing transwoman was forcing their male genitals into a woman's space, in defiance and not giving a shit who they upset.

These TRAs never have a straight clear answer on this. They then ignore it and go on to something else. Even on something as clear as day as this, they don't have the ability to debate in good faith or the intellectual or emotional honesty to acquiesce the very simple rationale that a woman, including vulnerable abuse survivors and Muslim women, have the RIGHT to their safe space.

Not ONCE, not ONCE has a TRA ever been able to address that. There is no veracity, there is no debating in good faith on their side. If they don't have a prepared counterpoint lined up, they are stuffed, and they just don't answer you. Their aim by and large is not to debate or contest ideas; it is to browbeat us into submission, and when a question gets too tough, they ignore it, don't answer it, deflect, or in some cases, just repeat on rote like a programmed person; 'transwomen are women, transwomen are women, transwomen are women'. They are not prepared to answer questions in good faith, certainly not if they don't have the prepared scripted answer. They flounder when they have no prepared scripted answer. Just for once, I'd like one of them to answer, who has the most right in a female only space: a rape and domestic violence supporter and a Hijabi Muslim (a protected racial/religious minority at that, so it must cause the 'woke' some major conniptions working around that one); OR a person with male genitalia who wants to walk around naked around these women and have their BALLS WAXED.

Which one has 'right of way', so to speak? It can't be both. You can only pick one.

I would love @Nightinghawk to read this article and to hear their response. It mostly represents how I and others I know have begun to feel. I hope this is an acceptable message.

uncommongroundmedia.com/how-i-became-a-trans-rights-activist-then-turned-gender-critical/

This was forwarded to a group I'm on. I don't follow this particular page, but this says everything; a woman's only Domestic Violence shelter has been vandalised and DEFUNDED in favour of a Transgender only shelter.

Now, OP, and fellow readers, pray tell how this is not evidence of the MRA/TRA war against women. Does the OP support this: www.facebook.com/deepgreenresistance/posts/3911643465561394?cft[0]=AZUB7o-bzOeVWT1uRnlfn-rUQENt01dLGsJlKQWfZeHMV2SIB8156ANSk4ZDotG1PkycCuvYUSDpbRe98rnql3iPu1-gxSM-QBNGMaejyORPekIzVQO4YaHZVvzG3VDWIGTqAQQXEJPeB7Btgs5JLqKY&tn=%2CO%2CP-R

@Hoppinggreen

I too am puzzled about being non binary AND Trans Still, you do you OP

Here you go. Trans is an umbrella term, with lots of sub categories of identities underneath. So indeed one can be trans and non binary! There are binary trans, and non binary trans.

Much to take on in these new fangled identities!

@Mockolate

I will not call a man she or a woman he

OK, that's fair enough but for the poster who was saying "never seen any of that on here"
there you go then.

Well, lots of us don't want to be "cis"women and get called that anyway.