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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

999 replies

ool0n · 03/03/2021 14:39

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

OP posts:
TheBuffster · 03/03/2021 20:04

I find it deeply upsetting that the nuanced, carefully thought out feminists on here, who contribute on a variety of topics regularly write carefully worded questions, arguments and highlight conflicts of rights get told by the odd, 'I'm an inclusive feminist' virtue signallers that their feminising wrong. The people that bring nothing new or thought provoking to the discussion don't ever display the evidence of having really deeply engaged and grappled with the subject and just simplify it to an argument no one actually disputes.

As demonstrated many times, the GC line is not transphobic and they recognise everyone's right to exist. They merely highlight conflicts of rights where they do exist.

I can't work out if people who misinterpret that don't understand, or that they do and purposefully try to tack bogus points of view onto the gc argument.

Always like a good, well crafted, thought provoking post so thank you for those that provide them. Particularly those who have really got to grips with the law and politics as that always makes interesting reading.

Erkrie · 03/03/2021 20:04

Assigned sex at birth DOES NOT EQUAL gender.

Exactly. They are not the same thing in the slightest. So why conflate them? Why should people with a female gender identity also have the rights, services and safeguards in place for women's biological sex? It makes very little sense.

Leafstamp · 03/03/2021 20:04

@Erkrie

I am not a woman. I'm nonbinary

Ok so youre gender identity is non binary. But your biological sex is female.

I think that people need to be comfortable saying what sex they are from a medical perspective as otherwise you could be in whole heaps of bother. Especially later in life when your health had a nasty habit of deteriorating - lumps and pains and all sorts are investigated/diagnosed quite differently.

I can’t see the day when a trans women will ever be referred to a gynaecologist.

Frogartist · 03/03/2021 20:05

@UhtredRagnarson

Wouldn't it be better to leave it undefined?

Interesting. What other things should we leave undefined? Man? If we’re being fair that would be the obvious next one. Your salary? Shall we forget about defining what that is? Leave it open to whoever feels like deciding what your labour is worth at any given moment? Or will we just stop at leaving woman undefined? Why? Who does that benefit? Take some time to think about that.

Let's leave man undefined. So transwomen can be men.
ool0n · 03/03/2021 20:07

"Like I said, no one has ever had any trouble defining 'woman' up until this point where women have carved out certain rights and protections for themselves that they would like to hold on to"

@BarbaraofKent , that simply isn't true, please read the link I gave above where the definition of "woman" by biology is harming many women right now. There have been lots of issues in defining women by biology over the years, including at least one athlete barred from the Olympics as "not a woman", only to use the break to have a child. I think by most definitions she is a woman? The litany of human rights abuses from this definition being applied to a few 10s of thousands of women, elite athletes, is nothing compared to if it was applied to 3.5 bn women.

OP posts:
TransRightsRCool · 03/03/2021 20:08

@AbsintheFriends

I am not a woman. I'm nonbinary.

But you will still benefit from the efforts of women who have campaigned - for example - for employers to recognise and accommodate the impact of menopause. And those who fought to close the gender pay gap.

Not necessarily. If I'm out to my employer they will either a) do this, thus rendering me invisible which is still harmful, or b) find some nonsensical reason to fire me that's totally not related to my being nonbinary, honestly.

Also, I'm disabled so I've got that going for me as well which isn't wonderful. My prospects for jobs are not great (discussion for another time, lol).

I do see what you're saying though. I would benefit from some of things, and for that I am eternally grateful. Just because I support LGBTQ+ rights does not mean I can't also support womens rights. I'd more than happily do my bit to protect women's rights. And that means all women. Trans women included.

borntobequiet · 03/03/2021 20:09

I can’t see the day when a transwoman will ever be referred to a gynaecologist.

One would think not. But at least one is upset because the gynaecologist wouldn’t see them:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7752769/Transgender-activist-sued-salon-refusing-wax-complains-gynecologist-wont-her.html

WarriorN · 03/03/2021 20:10

Correct me if I'm wrong....

Yes you are wrong.

Woman means an adult human female.

Women have thousands of extra genes on that extra x arm that change their genetic make up entirely.

Medicines, giving blood after birth etc are all affected by sex.

Transwomen and transmen Have had (or not) cosmetic surgery/ medications to change how they look.

Erkrie · 03/03/2021 20:10

Why does woman have to be defined anyway? Wouldn't it be better to leave it undefined? So that you don't have to look and dress and be a specific way to be considered a woman? Or is that just for excluding trans women?*

You're conflating sex and gender. It matters little how people dress. You already don't have to look, dress and be a specific way. What is important, and what needs to be defined, is biological sex. As each sex (not gender identity) has specific needs rooted in a physical reality.

ool0n · 03/03/2021 20:11

@TheBuffster - "As demonstrated many times, the GC line is not transphobic and they recognise everyone's right to exist. They merely highlight conflicts of rights where they do exist."

So why is the "women's declaration" calling for the GRA to be repealed, signed by most of the big GC organisations? That was implemented after the UK government lost a case in the EU Humans Rights Court, they were forced to implement rights for trans people. It's common now that GC people call for this right to be removed from all trans people. I can't see that as anything but transphobic, can you?

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 20:11

@ool0n

"So if I don't identify as a woman... does that mean I'm not a woman?"

This is contradictory, identify as a woman means saying "I'm a woman" to the question "Are you a woman?". It seems you think "identify as" means something else. It just means expressing your identity.

No silly! It only appears to be contradictory if you start from the assumption that the first part of the sentence made any sense whatsoever!

If someone was to ask me "What is a woman" I could answer "I am, I am a woman" and I am indeed the absolute acme of woman, every last cell of me. Same for female!

My identity changes depending on who I am talking to, what I am doing: sister, wife, daughter, employer, customer. That is who not what I am!

I identify other objects/people as they are not me and I sometimes don't know who/what they are. So I ask and/or look more closely, and establish who or what they are, naming them - as in apply their correct nomenclature.

That's how language works in the real world!

TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 03/03/2021 20:13

The difference with defining 'chair', is that we could chuck around different characteristics of a chair - flat surface? 4 legs? Bears weight? and discuss whether we think they're essential to chair-ness.

But there is no possible defining characteristic of woman other than 'female bodied', that isn't a gender stereotype. And that's why you're getting stuck when you try to define it.
Gender stereotypes are SO deeply embedded in your worldview that you can't even see them.

WeeBisom · 03/03/2021 20:13

On the definition point - a definition is self referential if it uses the same term in the very definition itself. They are not informative. They don't help us pick out what the concept actually is. Many philosophers would deny that they count as definitions at all.

Take the 'chair' definition. It is true that it is hard to create definitions that include all the necessary and sufficient properties of a things but that isn't needed for a definition to be useful or informative. So the definition of chair tells me that it's a seat, usually with four legs and a back rest which someone can sit in. It's not a perfect definition, but it is sufficiently informative enough that I can exclude certain things from the category for sure (a basket doesn't have a back rest, and isn't for sitting in, so it's not a chair) and can include some things in it. It is useful because it tells me what a chair is.

That's all I ask when I ask what a 'woman' is. How would you describe what a woman is, what are the properties of 'woman' such that I could know whether I am part of that category? I'm not asking for a perfect necessary and sufficient definition (although note that it's really funny - many philosophy textbooks say that women= adult human female is as close to a perfect definition and analytic truth as you can get. they would be surprised to hear it's now controversial.) When you say a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman, I at least know that my search has to begin with people who identify as such. But once I have gathered all those people together, I can still ask - by virtue of what are they identifying as women? What ties them together in some way?

For example, here is an informative definition You might say ' a woman is any one who is, or believes they are, an adult human female.' That would mean that it's a state of being and also a mental state. And then we could get into a real discussion - we could say , well why include people who believe they are adult human females and not just the adult human females? Typically believing you are a member of the category doesn't make you a member of that category. Etc. But until we know what the concept is, we can't meaningfully have any discussion about it.

As for people saying why do we need a definition of woman anyway...I'm reminded of Contrapoints latest video where they say that defining woman is 'mere metaphysics' and no one has time to waste on metaphysics. But metaphysics is just the study of what exists, and the nature of things. Contrapoints videos are all about unpacking the nature of things, so it seems they do a lot of metaphysics!But this reply is also misguided and arrogant. Women are having the very definition of their oppressed class redefined and pulled out from under them. Don't we at least get a say in this? And isn't it useful to know who the women are in order to direct help and resources to them?

Erkrie · 03/03/2021 20:14

I'd more than happily do my bit to protect women's rights. And that means all women. Trans women included.

And how do you propose protecting transwomens rights? By ensuring they have services in place unique to their own biology? Or by undermining women's rights based around their biological sex through conflating sex and gender. Which are not the same thing.

PheasantPlucker1 · 03/03/2021 20:14

TransRightRCool again, not trying to be goady.

We are both the same sex. You have a non-binary gender, i reject any gender for myself, and would describe myself as having no gender.

To me, they seem similar positions but I assume you'd disagree? Can you explain what you think the difference is?

ool0n · 03/03/2021 20:15

@WarriorN - "Women have thousands of extra genes on that extra x arm that change their genetic make up entirely."

This is not at all true, there are a couple of genes that need two copies to be activated and they are also on the Y. Other than that one of the X's is inactive and only the genes on the other are relevant throughout the lifecycle of the cell.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-inactivation

Trans men and women will usually have the hormonal makeup of their acquired sex. That is far more important medically than an inactive X chromosome.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 03/03/2021 20:15

Why would anyone want that to be applied to all women?

To get appropriate medical treatment if nothing else.

You seem to imagine a world where women can ignore the consequences if biology, as though access to both contraception and reproductive medical care can be taken for granted.

midgedude · 03/03/2021 20:15

How many times does it need repeating ?

Transwomen are not women
Transmen are

So transwomen are as relevent in women's rights as they are in women's rugby and a gynaecology ward. Not all all

And every time you suggest that there is something in my identity/none biological nature that links me and transwomen but not men and transmen you are telling me I have a female brain which is abusive so I suggest you stop being so insulting to wonderful

WarriorN · 03/03/2021 20:15

So why is the "women's declaration" calling for the GRA to be repealed, signed by most of the big GC organisations?

How come a number of trans people agree it needs repealing?

The whole thing was set up to allow marriage between a trans man and a woman; when same sex marriage was allowed, it became unnecessary.

Winesalot · 03/03/2021 20:16

@ool0n

Correct me if I'm wrong but gender critical people want to define "woman" by biology. I only know of one official defn of "woman" by biology, that used by sporting bodies. This has massively harmed women, including enforced non-consensual surgery, as detailed here - www.hrw.org/report/2020/12/04/theyre-chasing-us-away-sport/human-rights-violations-sex-testing-elite-women

Why would anyone want that to be applied to all women?

Why are you posting an article about a person who has a medical condition? This is a horrific incident of this person did not agree to the operation and that is entirely different to the point of your post.

I have not read more about this particular case, but differences in sex development should not be used as a political weapon, surely.

And with today’s modern technology, people born with these conditions have been classed as either male or female.

Impatiens · 03/03/2021 20:16

[quote ool0n]@TheBuffster - "As demonstrated many times, the GC line is not transphobic and they recognise everyone's right to exist. They merely highlight conflicts of rights where they do exist."

So why is the "women's declaration" calling for the GRA to be repealed, signed by most of the big GC organisations? That was implemented after the UK government lost a case in the EU Humans Rights Court, they were forced to implement rights for trans people. It's common now that GC people call for this right to be removed from all trans people. I can't see that as anything but transphobic, can you?[/quote]
Repealing the GRA doesn't mean 'removing' rights/protections from trans people. The GRA is a mess, a bungled and illiterate piece of legislation, it needs to be replaced with something far more clear and accurately defined.

334bu · 03/03/2021 20:17

For instance here is the legal defn of "woman" in Scotland, it includes trans women, self identifying ones at that.
www.gov.scot/publications/gender-representation-public-boards-scotland-act-2018-statutory-guidance/pages/2/

This is only a definition for the purposes of a particular Act not.a legally binding definition and it is also a subject of judicial review at the moment.

BarbaraofKent · 03/03/2021 20:18

This reply has been deleted

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Sophoclesthefox · 03/03/2021 20:18

@ool0n

"Like I said, no one has ever had any trouble defining 'woman' up until this point where women have carved out certain rights and protections for themselves that they would like to hold on to"

@BarbaraofKent , that simply isn't true, please read the link I gave above where the definition of "woman" by biology is harming many women right now. There have been lots of issues in defining women by biology over the years, including at least one athlete barred from the Olympics as "not a woman", only to use the break to have a child. I think by most definitions she is a woman? The litany of human rights abuses from this definition being applied to a few 10s of thousands of women, elite athletes, is nothing compared to if it was applied to 3.5 bn women.

This is to do with athletes who have differences of sex development, formerly known as intersex. It’s really nothing to do with trans, they are two quite separate issues. There are quite a few threads discussing it on the board, as there are many posters, me included, who enjoy discussing sports science, please do join us on one of them. Here’s a link to start you off.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176952-caster-semenya-s-case-to-be-taken-to-echr

merrymouse · 03/03/2021 20:18

Trans men and women will usually have the hormonal makeup of their acquired sex.

Strangely you seem unfamiliar with the variety of conditions included under the trans umbrella and non binary identities and the idea that trans men can have periods and give birth.