Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

Sex-based oppression for females is important, and something I care about deeply (being born female myself), but it doesn't necessarily have to link with being a woman. Not every woman is female. But chances are she'll support female rights

I'll be sure to tell my daughters that they just have to make it clear to a man trying to rape them that they aren't women. He'll instantly back off with a polite apology.

Well you could say everyone has a gender identity forced upon them

The obvious thing there is to change that forcing of identity on people, not men telling women what gender identity everyone has

gender matches your sex.

Not possible. Sex is a set of biological characteristics, 'gender' merely the instrument of women's biological oppression. No wonder so many of us choose not to 'identify' with that. Not least, the human-defined constructs ‘masculinity’ or ‘femininity’ bear no relation to sex, unless they refer to heavy labour or childbearing that are directly linked to these characteristics.

Yep. This.

@BarbaraofKent

Sex-based oppression for females is important, and something I care about deeply (being born female myself), but it doesn't necessarily have to link with being a woman. Not every woman is female.

Sorry, what? What is a woman then, if not a female? Sorry I hate to do this to you, as I know you are struggling with that question but otherwise what you are saying makes no sense?

Assigned sex at birth DOES NOT EQUAL gender.

For example

I was born female

And yet

I am not a woman. I'm nonbinary.

@BarbaraofKent. "Women are difficult to define... Just like chairs!"

I didn't say anything of the sort, in fact I was responding to a post that was objecting to a very simple defn of woman as it is circular. I was pointing out that is a fallacious reason to object to a defn as many are circular in the dictionary. We can define chair and women quite easily, it's very difficult to come up with a defn that includes all things most people would agree are chairs though. So why do you think "woman" is more simple than a chair?

For instance here is the legal defn of "woman" in Scotland, it includes trans women, self identifying ones at that.
www.gov.scot/publications/gender-representation-public-boards-scotland-act-2018-statutory-guidance/pages/2/

Why does woman have to be defined anyway? Wouldn't it be better to leave it undefined?

The privilege of not needing to know why that is important.

so I'm not sure why "TRAHR" is a slogan

Seems to be one of those things that are deliberately mixed up. Because of course trans rights are human rights. If they changed the slogan to trans rights are women's rights for example, it wouldn't go down so well. But seeing as they won't tell us what rights are being removed, I don't think it's unfair to assume that the rights of which they speak of aren't actually theirs. Happy to stand corrected if someone is able to explain what TRAHR is supposed to mean though. And what rights it is they feel are being taken.

@MargaritaPie

BirdsEye and Flora (amongst others) have terminated their advertising contracts with Mumsnet re controversial forum content re the topic of trans-people? Isn't that correct?

The NSPCC also pulled out of a live webchat because of this too, correct?

Just taken Birdseye and Flora off the shopping list, will never give my money to misogynists. Incredibly pissed off about NSPCC, when did they become such misogynists?

When will men stop trying to take away womens rights? They are even trying to take away our names.

Biology matters in law, in medicine and yes sadly in society or there wouldn't be such disparity between the sexes.

Live and let live, be who you want, express what you want but don't try and take from others.

Ah but you see under any definition of woman that isn't related to pure biology , most women are in fact not women

Doesn't stop the world treating you like shit though. Doesn't stop you getting pregnant . Doesn't make you strong .

Sometimes I think we could move along a lot quicker if we all proudly stated a none binary gender identity and then went back to protecting adult human females previously known as women . Like Prince you know .

Wouldn't it be better to leave it undefined?

Interesting. What other things should we leave undefined? Man? If we’re being fair that would be the obvious next one. Your salary? Shall we forget about defining what that is? Leave it open to whoever feels like deciding what your labour is worth at any given moment? Or will we just stop at leaving woman undefined? Why? Who does that benefit? Take some time to think about that.

I am not a woman. I'm nonbinary

Ok so youre gender identity is non binary. But your biological sex is female.

As has been said many times before, if you cannot identify a group, you cannot give them rights and protections.
Wasn’t this said in the House of Lords very recently indeed? So not that extreme a position then.

A woman is an adult human female.

'Woman' is not an 'identity'. It's not something that can be put on or taken off like a costume.

@Erkrie

I am not a woman. I'm nonbinary

Ok so youre gender identity is non binary. But your biological sex is female.

Congratulations you can read? That's what I said.

it's very difficult to come up with a defn that includes all things most people would agree are chairs though. So why do you think "woman" is more simple than a chair?

You would never make it as a sheep farmer.

I am not a woman. I'm nonbinary.

But you will still benefit from the efforts of women who have campaigned - for example - for employers to recognise and accommodate the impact of menopause. And those who fought to close the gender pay gap.

And as a female none binary person do you think the world should treat you differently to any other female person?

We can define chair and women quite easily, it's very difficult to come up with a defn that includes all things most people would agree are chairs though. So why do you think "woman" is more simple than a chair?

Like I said, no one has ever had any trouble defining 'woman' up until this point where women have carved out certain rights and protections for themselves that they would like to hold on to.

A woman is an adult human female. We all know this. We all came out of one.

Wouldn't it be better to leave it undefined?

So women can experience sexism, but without all that boring nonsense of talking or writing about it.

So, what do you think about the disablist implications I referenced earlier?

The world has no trouble defining potential woman when it comes to selective abortion

Or rape in warfare

FGM

Correct me if I'm wrong but gender critical people want to define "woman" by biology. I only know of one official defn of "woman" by biology, that used by sporting bodies. This has massively harmed women, including enforced non-consensual surgery, as detailed here -
www.hrw.org/report/2020/12/04/theyre-chasing-us-away-sport/human-rights-violations-sex-testing-elite-women

Why would anyone want that to be applied to all women?

nancywhitehead - If there were no stereotypes in the world about "male" or "female" then I suppose we would have a perfectly gender-neutral world. Everybody would have a sex of course but other than that, no one would be influenced in the way of girls liking pink, boys liking blue and all of those gender stereotypes.

Unfortunately though, that's just not the world we live in, as much as we would like to. We do have gender stereotypes, and some of them are very deep, unconscious biases that are difficult to get rid of, and I suppose we don't want to, or it would have happened.

These ideas and stereotypes possibly are a factor in people feeling they are the wrong gender. But the fact is that these norms are a part in our society and we can't erase them, so until society changes we just have to accept them as part of people's lived experiences. There is not really any point saying "but we shouldn't have gender stereotypes!" when in fact, we do.

Yeah, feminists, give up now - you'll never achieve anything

No one's destroying anything. I hope.

One would say the safety and fairness of women’s sport is being significantly undermined as a start.

And what about today’s judicial review into women’s safeguarding in prison.

If there are 60+ gender identities, how is using 4 words (ciswoman, transwoman, cisman, transman) at all useful? What about the missing 56 gender identities?

If you insist that I have a gender identity, does it matter that I don't know what it is? I couldn't even name the 60+ identities so haven't singled out which one I identify with. And obviously how I identify is the key here - no-one else should be able to assign me a gender identity.

Seeing as I've managed to happily reach middle age without discovering my gender identity, I reckon I'll crack on as I am. I'm a woman.

Trans people should have human rights and be protected from discrimination on the basis of their trans status. Non-binary people are valid, as are all humans.