Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

OP you say your gender identity is a man. What makes you a man? How could I know you’re a man and not a woman or non binary without a pronouns sticker?

^contintent

@bigotryisbad This might be a genuine piece of miscommunication - our assertion that we welcome debate is our statement, as in MNHQ's (the mod team and the people who run the site). MN has about 8 million users a month - we really can't claim that all MN users agree with us on anything

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]**@ool0n* Maybe we should just let people self identify how they like?*

So... you agree with the majority of posters here then? Good![/quote]
This. I'm all for people thinking of themselves however they want.

This however doesn't mean that it's possible (or right) to control how others think of you, and laws shouldn't be based on something so personal, internal and unprovable.

But the question is, is Mumsnet HQ saying they are now supporting trans-rights because they really do support trans-rights? Or because they have lost all their sponsors/advertising contracts and realise noone wants to work with them anymore?

Absolutely, it's your identity, I am a man, that's me asserting my gender identity as I define it. If in some weird transhumanist prank I woke up tomorrow and was in a body that is typically considered "a woman's" I wouldn't identify as a woman. I'm a man, and that identity is separate from my body's characteristics.

This particular 'thought experiment' is so stupid. Apart from the fact that it is literally impossible and therefore moot, you would have had however many years (presumably at least 18?) year as a man, socialised as a man, in a man's body, so yes, I'm not surprised if you woke up the following day with tits and a minge you would feel a little discombobulated. Assuming that's what you mean by 'typically considered a woman's body'!

@bigotryisbad that's quite the claim to make. Please can you explain how exactly how it is transphobic and threatening?

Please bear in mind that if it was either of those things then it would have been deleted by @MNHQ very promptly. Me thinks you doth protest too much.

and this is why this website is know in other countries as a hate speech circle jerk.
for the record,

trans rights are human rights

trans women are women

trans men are men

non binary people are valid!

trans people have existed for as long as people have existed, the quicker you get to grips with that, the happier you'll be

@Waspnest

Trans people literally can't change their identity even if they wanted to, same as gay people can't change their sexuality.

But people do Pip Bunce.

I think you need to do a lot more research OP.

That's not a change of identity, Pippa identifies as gender fluid. Changing identity there would be to force them into a binary identity, conversion therapy aimed at that goal has historically failed. I'd say to anyone who thinks they're making it up, or not serious about their identity, why doesn't the threat of literal torture make them drop the pretence?

By the way, I am loving this thread - let's engage guys, bring it on!

No one can change their X X or XY

Not at the moment at least.

Trans women are just that, Trans women, and ought to play sports only against men or trans women, as a skeletal/muscular advantage is obvious.

@ool0n My comment was to illustrate that gender expression in children does change, most of the time. Children developing, growing, changing, do try on identities like costumes. It is a natural part of development. My kids did this all the time.

I don't know anything at all about conversion therapy. Can you point me to some reading?

I will also say however, that I do support people to live the lives they want to. Almost everyone on this forum would agree with that.

Sex is immutable. Sex is biological fact.

Human rights apply to all humans.

@alreadytaken

This is a discussion forum. You wont define what "I am a man" means to you but we can infer it means that everyone else must agree to anything you say.

I am a man, that's me asserting my gender identity as I define it. If in some weird transhumanist prank I woke up tomorrow and was in a body that is typically considered "a woman's" I wouldn't identify as a woman.

Obviously it would be quite a shock, but there is a very popular TV show that explores the idea of changing bodies - Doctor Who. If you are going to imagine an alternative reality where it is normal to significantly and suddenly change your body in a drastic way, there is no particular reason to believe that gender identity would be a problem.

That's not a change of identity, Pippa identifies as gender fluid. Changing identity there would be to force them into a binary identity, conversion therapy aimed at that goal has historically failed. I'd say to anyone who thinks they're making it up, or not serious about their identity, why doesn't the threat of literal torture make them drop the pretence?

And how does de-transitioning entirely of ones own accord fit with that?

Trans people literally can't change their identity even if they wanted to, same as gay people can't change their sexuality.

OK.

So, how does this effect women's rights that have been put in place to alleviate the sexist discrimination that females experience because of their sexed bodies?

[quote Impatiens]**@bigotryisbad However, it's clear from this thread and others that this forum hosts and platforms those who lie about trans people and their rights.

What 'lies' would those be? I think you mean posters on here tell truths that trans activists don't like. They are happy to debate but they aren't going to lie for the sake of trans activist agenda or feelings. If that's what you were looking for, tough.

T[/quote]
Since you ask:

Trans people's existing rights to use the spaces and services that align with their Equality Act 2010 section 7 protected characteristic are not 'in conflict' with women's rights.

They have existed for decades in this form and in previous versions and there is no evidence that this has lead to systematic issues for cis women, trans women, cis men or trans men.

In this thread alone, this claim has been made repeatedly, without evidence.

Why?

To justify or excuse the removal of existing legal rights and protections from trans people.

This is extremely transphobic.

oops - accidentally quoted the wrong post there.

@MargaritaPie

But the question is, is Mumsnet HQ saying they are now supporting trans-rights because they really do support trans-rights? Or because they have lost all their sponsors/advertising contracts and realise noone wants to work with them anymore?

That assumes something that neither MN or many GC posters here have said, on the whole.

It also assumes that MN have lost ALL of their sponsors/advertisers.

You make statements that are unfounded, but make great Tweets!

It is indeed limiting, quite likely people who didn't feel they fitted in that 5 gender system. Maybe we should just let people self identify how they like?
indiancountrytoday.com/uncategorized/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders

But people can, can't they? But they can't self identify which sex they are.

oolOn allowing people to identify how they like sounds great, except how far do we allow people to take it?

Is it just gender or does it include biology, things such as age, ethnicity, and sex?

@MargaritaPie

But the question is, is Mumsnet HQ saying they are now supporting trans-rights because they really do support trans-rights? Or because they have lost all their sponsors/advertising contracts and realise noone wants to work with them anymore?

MNHQ have always supported trans rights. The difference is that they have also allowed women to talk freely about their rights and ensuring that they are protected and allows women to talk about themselves as a distinct class with their own needs and desires. Which I know scares the living shit out of some people but you are just going to have to deal with it I'm afraid.

Fascinating to see the difference between twitterverse and MN posters.

@MargaritaPie

But the question is, is Mumsnet HQ saying they are now supporting trans-rights because they really do support trans-rights? Or because they have lost all their sponsors/advertising contracts and realise noone wants to work with them anymore?

Advertising is where all the money is made.......... That is how I see it.

@BarbaraofKent - you didn't explain how it is "stupid", just that it is. I wouldn't call myself a woman if my body changed. Some people on here assert their entire identity as a man or woman is based on their bodies. So logically if they woke up with a different one, they'd just say "OK, I'm a man/woman now" and carry on sans-discombobulation.

I say the "discombobulation" is the disjunction between my identity and my new body. No identity, no discombobulation.