Non binary confused and sad

[Mumteedum]

I am late forties and until now non binary people haven't entered my orbit. I work in HE, and have had plenty of trans students so it's only been a matter of time.

As with any of my students, I will support them and never offer any judgement. I'm grateful that so far my uni does not compel anyone to state pronouns etc.

But I suddenly just feel sad and confused about this whole thing. I sort of 'get' trans even though I recognize the pressures and issues around it.

Non binary to me for a young woman who lives in a female body just feels like a sad thing. That they are rejecting womanhood. I don't understand really. What do they think being a woman is? How can anyone say what feeling male or female is? I look at all these gender definitions and it's just exhausting. I feel sad that being a woman can't mean all the different types of people it always did, anymore.

They have to work out their sexuality and their gender based on vague and confusing definitions. I grew up knowing I fancied boys but never gave a thought to gender beyond not particularly liking stereotypical stuff like dolls and was a bit of a goth in my teens. Have we just replaced teenage identities like goths or whatever, with this gender stuff? I really feel for young people.

Many of my previous trans students have mentioned they should deal with their identity or they must get on with transitioning. It seems so pressured. I didn't have any trans students until about 2015.

I feel old. I am not cis and wont be stating my bluddy pronouns anytime soon. Sorry for the ramble. Just needed to get it out.

It seems like young women are fleeing from young womanhood.

I sometimes think, is it ubiquitous pirn and over sexualisation from a young age? Young girls running away from it, and older men are embracing it.

Many disagree with me on here, and want to reject the idea of gender completely, but I think one answer is to acknowledge gender but in doing so steer the discussions of gender towards widening up the existing stereotypes up so every gender expression is seen as appropriate for either sex. This way, I think, it is less likely for people to think the way they feel compelled to express themselves and the way they feel somehow does not correlate with their sex.

Gender is a cultural phenomenon and we, as part of society, can be as influential as anyone else in creating that phenomenon.

But in doing that, don't we weaken and confuse what is means to be male or female? Don't we narrow it down to make it just the stereotype?

No because sex remains the same. Can't change sex even if appearance is altered. Gender is unconnected to sex. Protected characteristics and provisions for biological sex remain.

So the existing stereotypes and other multitudes of gender expression are each seen as appropriate and normative in terms of gender expression for either sex.

pensive I think it's been established there's an issue with your proposal.

OP, I agree it's sad and it's infuriating. They could so easily say 'fuck this' to gender stereotypes and be GC, fighting against the expectations society places on them. Instead, they seem to think by not accepting they are women they can escape everything that's wrong with how society treats women. It won't happen because they will be discriminated against for being female, and in top of that, be discriminated against on top of that for not accepting they are women.

For now...but that is debatable considering the sudden movement to gender neutral spaces isn't it?

I suppose I am questioning what it means for womanhood if those who don't conform to stereotypes abandon it in favour of a new gender or non gender? Being female to me should embrace all types of women that have biology and/or experience in common. I can see your point @pensivepigeon, but I felt the need to reject labels as a younger woman and now we seem obsessed with them. I feel like women will become an even smaller, weaker minority if we dilute it's meaning to all these new genders.

I'm sorry. I feel similarly sad for younger people and incredibly lucky to have had the example of some incredible, plain-speaking, battleaxe women.

I distinctly remember one woman visiting our school to teach us about self-defence. She directly informed us that as nice, middle class young girls we had been brought up to be kind and polite to everyone but that this would actively work against us when defending ourselves from those who would harm us because it would make is hesitate and second-guess ourselves. She was adamant that we did not owe anyone making us uncomfortable any such consideration and encouraged us to actively undo that instinct to 'be kind' and suppress our gut feeling at all costs. Better to be rude and alive than kind and dead (also my mother's philosophy).

I couldn't pick her out of a line up but her words had such a profound effect on me as they were so radical to my ear at that time! It was in a different context, of course, but I often think of her now and feel that I owe it to her and the universe at large to pass on that sort of robust support and 'permission' to be defiant of social expectations to other young women.

It sounds like they have a thoughtful ally in you, which they are lucky to have. They will remember it.

Have we just replaced teenage identities like goths or whatever, with this gender stuff? I really feel for young people.

I think there's an element of this. I posted recently about seeing an old music video of Avril Lavigne. I found it deeply shocking and incredibly sad, because if a girl looked like that now she have to be non-binary. Lavigne could be female without any problem. She was doing female her way (in the videos at least).

I know two teens who have declared their pronouns "they" - both rejecting some idea of womanhood. The younger is 14 and receives dick pics. She doesn't need to visit any porn, she doesn't need to be sexually assaulted in the street because she's being flashed in her own home. And why? Because it's known that her phone number belongs to a girl. Boys in her class don't receive dick pics from unknown numbers.

So, if that's what being female is, who the fuck would want to be female!!

Obviously these girls haven't yet figured out that they can use whatever pronouns they want, can insist on others using them until they're blue in the face, but they're still female and always will be.

, but I felt the need to reject labels as a younger woman and now we seem obsessed with them. I feel like women will become an even smaller, weaker minority if we dilute it's meaning to all these new genders.

But woman traditionally refers to people of the female sex. As sex has not and cannot be changed I see no need to change the meaning of this word. Varied gender expression relates only to gender, the cultural phenomenon, not sex.

I've actually been reminded of something that's even sadder.

There was a Twitter thread last year or the year before (probably plenty of stuff on tumblr too) for 'female presenting' trans boys - so young females who claimed to be trans boys but liked to present and behave in a female way. Otherwise known as normal teenage girls. But they honestly felt they were different.

I'm not sure if it was caused by puberty, ASD or just this whole gender bollocks. Maybe a mix of it all.

Gender is to sex what racism is to race.

A collection of lies trying to attach itself to a group of people.

There's nothing to be celebrated about it. What we once recognised as sexism has since rebranded itself as gender and now demands we accept, celebrate and include it.

No.

@WWJackieWeaverD

I'm sorry. I feel similarly sad for younger people and incredibly lucky to have had the example of some incredible, plain-speaking, battleaxe women.

I distinctly remember one woman visiting our school to teach us about self-defence. She directly informed us that as nice, middle class young girls we had been brought up to be kind and polite to everyone but that this would actively work against us when defending ourselves from those who would harm us because it would make is hesitate and second-guess ourselves. She was adamant that we did not owe anyone making us uncomfortable any such consideration and encouraged us to actively undo that instinct to 'be kind' and suppress our gut feeling at all costs. Better to be rude and alive than kind and dead (also my mother's philosophy).

I couldn't pick her out of a line up but her words had such a profound effect on me as they were so radical to my ear at that time! It was in a different context, of course, but I often think of her now and feel that I owe it to her and the universe at large to pass on that sort of robust support and 'permission' to be defiant of social expectations to other young women.

It sounds like they have a thoughtful ally in you, which they are lucky to have. They will remember it.

Awesome woman!

But woman traditionally refers to people of the female sex. As sex has not and cannot be changed I see no need to change the meaning of this word. Varied gender expression relates only to gender, the cultural phenomenon, not sex.

You must have missed that entire part in the history of women where the word "woman" got stolen by people who are not of the female sex...

You must have missed that entire part in the history of women where the word "woman" got stolen by people who are not of the female sex...

No, I've just grabbed it back!

Honestly I feel the analogy to goth culture is spot on - having a 'gender identity' is the current way to be 'different' and 'rebellious'. I was a teen in the late 90s - goth was already a bit old hat, it had moved on to grunge and then it became emo. Teen culture seems to have mutated from emo to gender identity and #bekind. I wonder if the next wave will be a massive reaction to the obsession with gender identity (which is frankly reinforcing conformity to 1950s gender stereotypes) and a throwback to proper punk rebellion? It's a sign of the times that I'm feeling nostalgic for DIY piercings, mohicans and bondage trousers!

I attended a large Zoom webinar today in which all but 2 of the panellists had their pronouns in their chyron. It made me realise that fresh pronoun hell is about to be peer-pressured or 'called out' in all sorts of unexpected settings.

@pensivepigeon

Many disagree with me on here, and want to reject the idea of gender completely, but I think one answer is to acknowledge gender but in doing so steer the discussions of gender towards widening up the existing stereotypes up so every gender expression is seen as appropriate for either sex. This way, I think, it is less likely for people to think the way they feel compelled to express themselves and the way they feel somehow does not correlate with their sex.

Gender is a cultural phenomenon and we, as part of society, can be as influential as anyone else in creating that phenomenon.

I don't think there an issue with your proposal. You are spot on. It's just unpopular on MN.

@Barracker

Gender is to sex what racism is to race.

A collection of lies trying to attach itself to a group of people.

There's nothing to be celebrated about it. What we once recognised as sexism has since rebranded itself as gender and now demands we accept, celebrate and include it.

No.

That's a new low, even for these boards.

*I don't think there an issue with your proposal. You are spot on. It's just unpopular on MN.

Thank you, @RootyT00t .

...as nice, middle class young girls we had been brought up to be kind and polite to everyone but that this would actively work against us when defending ourselves from those who would harm us because it would make is hesitate and second-guess ourselves. She was adamant that we did not owe anyone making us uncomfortable any such consideration and encouraged us to actively undo that instinct to 'be kind' and suppress our gut feeling at all costs. Better to be rude and alive than kind and dead.

This is excellent advice

@pensivepigeon

*I don't think there an issue with your proposal. You are spot on. It's just unpopular on MN.

Thank you, @RootyT00t .

Seen many of these threads. If you were arguing the other side but were just floating ideas you'd be welcomed with open arms. Your problem is your thoughts go against their agenda.

And great post Barracker. I agree with you.
Gender is just stereotypes and lies claiming a biological basis. Nothing progressive or empowering or freeing about any of it.

@ChattyLion

And great post Barracker. I agree with you. Gender is just stereotypes and lies claiming a biological basis. Nothing progressive or empowering or freeing about any of it.

Yes, great to compare human beings being unhappy with their gender and changing it to RACISM. Excellent comparison.

They have to work out their sexuality and their gender based on vague and confusing definitions.

They get the definitions from their peer group. Peer groups have the most influence, people outside of the peer group have little influence.
What we think is irrelevant to them.
The best thing we can do is just carry on. Keep creating new groups and meet each challenge as it comes.