Non binary confused and sad

[Mumteedum]

I am late forties and until now non binary people haven't entered my orbit. I work in HE, and have had plenty of trans students so it's only been a matter of time.

As with any of my students, I will support them and never offer any judgement. I'm grateful that so far my uni does not compel anyone to state pronouns etc.

But I suddenly just feel sad and confused about this whole thing. I sort of 'get' trans even though I recognize the pressures and issues around it.

Non binary to me for a young woman who lives in a female body just feels like a sad thing. That they are rejecting womanhood. I don't understand really. What do they think being a woman is? How can anyone say what feeling male or female is? I look at all these gender definitions and it's just exhausting. I feel sad that being a woman can't mean all the different types of people it always did, anymore.

They have to work out their sexuality and their gender based on vague and confusing definitions. I grew up knowing I fancied boys but never gave a thought to gender beyond not particularly liking stereotypical stuff like dolls and was a bit of a goth in my teens. Have we just replaced teenage identities like goths or whatever, with this gender stuff? I really feel for young people.

Many of my previous trans students have mentioned they should deal with their identity or they must get on with transitioning. It seems so pressured. I didn't have any trans students until about 2015.

I feel old. I am not cis and wont be stating my bluddy pronouns anytime soon. Sorry for the ramble. Just needed to get it out.

I don't know if any of you have children who watch Operation Ouch. I was so happy when they had a new female Dr join the team, but now I discover Dr Ronx identifies as non-binary and goes by they/them. I am running out of role models for my daughter.

That's a new low, even for these boards.

Do you actually understand that gender is a social construct based on regressive sex role stereotypes? I see nothing wrong at all with Barracker's post. It doesn't all revolve around trans people and what they believe, as feminists we reject gender for many reasons.

as feminists we reject gender for many reasons.

Except some feminists, like me, are willing to engage with gender discussions and seek to make gender a more accurate social construct which better reflects the reality of society today whilst upholding the protections and provisions made in law for biological females.

I think one answer is to acknowledge gender but in doing so steer the discussions of gender towards widening up the existing stereotypes up so every gender expression is seen as appropriate for either sex.

How is this different from getting rid of the stereotypes and gender? If all stereotypes fit both women and men, then they're just 'people' stereotypes and nothing to do with sex or gender.

If all stereotypes fit both women and men, then they're just 'people' stereotypes and nothing to do with sex or gender.

Exactly! Got it in one!

The reason for my stance though is that it allows dialogue and free expression without compromising women's rights. Attempt to silence people and you only further victim rhetoric and mentality.

That's a new low, even for these boards.

Perhaps you could explain? You must be going by some unusual new definition of 'gender' that I haven't encountered yet.

Could you give me some examples of how the 'female gender' manifests differently from the 'male gender' to help us understand how it isn't based in sexism and stereotypes?

I'm always willing to listen.

Could you give me some examples of how the 'female gender' manifests differently from the 'male gender' to help us understand how it isn't based in sexism and stereotypes

It doesn't manifest differently between the sexes. We need to redefine what gender actually means in reality to reflect this.

Thats not really a clear answer. Can you give and example of a typical male gender and a typical female gender? Does it change based on age?

Thats not really a clear answer

Because gender is diverse, fragmented and varied. It doesn't necessarily correlate with a person's sex. Sorry, it's not clearer but that's the reality of what we have here, now in society. It's a cultural phenomenon unlike biological sex in humans which is pretty clear cut.

So, personality then.

Yes, if you will. Redefine gender as personality. However, you need to be able to frame it so those used to referring to their gender will adopt this meaning and bridge the refinement of usage with the old usage.

So, personality then.

Yes.

I think non-binary is chosen as girls and young women are frightened of growing up. It seems to me that it's a way of avoiding some of the pressures of needing to find a boyfriend . My worry is if they seek to make irreversible changes - being non-binary can be a temporary state .

RootyT00t

pensivepigeon

I don't think there an issue with your proposal. You are spot on. It's just unpopular on MN

Thank you, @RootyT00t**

Seen many of these threads. If you were arguing the other side but were just floating ideas you'd be welcomed with open arms. Your problem is your thoughts go against their agenda

I'm not particularly gender critical- my problem with PensivePigeon's solution is I couldn't make head nor tail of what she was on about.

I'm really not trying to be rude but I read PensivePigeon's posts and just think I know what each individual word means but when you put them in that order in a sentence.....

To take 2 of the most disparate examples I can think of - Barracker and JJ - no disrespect intended to either- I frequently disagree with what they say but I only have to read them once to work out what they are saying.

I'm not surprised many girls don't want to become women. Womanhood is painted in such a negative light. All the difficulties (cramps, childbirth, harassment,) and none of the joys. Even feminists judge womanhood by male standards. Traditional female roles (aka "regressive" stereotypes) are undervalued while traditional male roles are lauded. With the continual poor me talk of oppression. who wouldn't want to bat for team patriarchy.

There is precious little discussion of women and their strengths throughout history. Lets talk about how women overcame obstacles rather than just the obstacles themselves (eg Mary Somerville). Lets talk about the fun, the joy and the rewards. Lets teach them techniques like the self defense courses mentioned up thread, to deal with life as it is, rather than expect wait for some distant utopia.

Thought experiment: What if these non binary girls are really just heterosexual females who are a bit unpopular in the brutal school social hierarchy and feel like social failures. Calling themselves non binary, is a way of protecting their sense of self and claiming some specialness. However, this preoccupation with sexuality is a joyless, self flagellating, narcissistic fools errand. Lets find a way to offer other, more positive, and fun activities.

my problem with PensivePigeon's solution is I couldn't make head nor tail of what she was on about.

My proposal is fairly simple centred around this idea:

                                             <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

That's a fairly typical view on these boards.

I’m afraid I think modern tendencies to entirely child led parenting coupled with subliminal sexualisation at an early age has much to answer for. We seem to have (on MN at least) quite a large number of people who are afraid to parent, to impose structures and norms that offer young children a framework and support in their development.

Leaving children to work out for themselves how to sleep, how to be potty trained and how to become an adult comfortable in their own skin is not helping them. Basic child development. They need a firm basis and confidence to explore and grow.

In terms of sexuality, they need positive role models of man and woman. The two are different, neither is better than the other. There are joys and reasons to celebrate either, but society seems to have forgotten that somehow.

In supporting greater freedom for all, there is a risk greater freedom is lost. Girls used to be able to be ‘Tomboys’ and we’re accepted as such. Not an ideal name, but able to live a much more traditionally male life without having to claim they were the wrong sex. Boys preferring more traditionally female activities got a harder time and that is probably what needs addressing.

Except some feminists, like me, are willing to engage with gender discussions and seek to make gender a more accurate social construct which better reflects the reality of society today

But that’s part of the issue, PensivePigeon. We had a kind of gender thing that reflected modern society. But that’s now disappeared and been taken over by these regressive ideas. That is not because society stopped promoting broader gender ideas.

I think the cause is social media - both indirectly (ideas spreading among teens on Tumblr) and directly (people pushing to narrow gender into these regressive stereotypes we have today).

I find NB very sad too. Yes, sometimes it’s just a fashion choice or a youth thing like Goths, but some of these girls genuinely believe they have something wrong/different about them because they don’t fulfil regressive gender roles or look a certain way (Kardashian, etc). The fact they’ve lost sight of the idea that girls/women can look how they like, do the jobs they like, act the way they like, is utterly tragic.

I wish we could have a pro-women campaign running in schools that underlined that very message.

Also, of course, looking at the definition of NB - we’re all NB, so it makes zero sense anyway.

@RootyT00t

‘Yes, great to compare human beings being unhappy with their gender and changing it to RACISM. Excellent comparison.’

do you actually read posts or just see what you want to see?

There was no comparison.

It does seem regressive rather than progressive to me.

There is no causal link between sex and gender.

This is true of society today and would fit in with feminist ideals and also be helpful to many who struggle with their own gender identity. What is wrong with that?

And you could actually be what transgender people term CIS and still agree with the statement:

                                              <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

You could be trans and agree with the statement or non binary and agree with the statement or gender fluid and agree with the statement:

                      <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

This is the middle ground.