Non binary confused and sad

[Mumteedum]

I am late forties and until now non binary people haven't entered my orbit. I work in HE, and have had plenty of trans students so it's only been a matter of time.

As with any of my students, I will support them and never offer any judgement. I'm grateful that so far my uni does not compel anyone to state pronouns etc.

But I suddenly just feel sad and confused about this whole thing. I sort of 'get' trans even though I recognize the pressures and issues around it.

Non binary to me for a young woman who lives in a female body just feels like a sad thing. That they are rejecting womanhood. I don't understand really. What do they think being a woman is? How can anyone say what feeling male or female is? I look at all these gender definitions and it's just exhausting. I feel sad that being a woman can't mean all the different types of people it always did, anymore.

They have to work out their sexuality and their gender based on vague and confusing definitions. I grew up knowing I fancied boys but never gave a thought to gender beyond not particularly liking stereotypical stuff like dolls and was a bit of a goth in my teens. Have we just replaced teenage identities like goths or whatever, with this gender stuff? I really feel for young people.

Many of my previous trans students have mentioned they should deal with their identity or they must get on with transitioning. It seems so pressured. I didn't have any trans students until about 2015.

I feel old. I am not cis and wont be stating my bluddy pronouns anytime soon. Sorry for the ramble. Just needed to get it out.

Gender is a cultural phenomenon and we, as part of society, can be as influential as anyone else in creating that phenomenon.

Just over 100 years ago gender meant that a woman couldn’t be a lawyer and was expected to always wear a skirt. Less than 100 years ago women couldn’t vote on the same terms as men.

It’s ridiculous to suggest that anyone should have to accept gender, or that there is any benefit to classifying people according to a range of gender identities.

@pensivepigeon

Gender identity is gendered stereotypes and the reinforcement of them.

For you maybe. It doesn't have to be. It is not for me. I am comfortable in my skin. I am female. I am a woman. I am infertile and have had a mastectomy due to cancer treatment. I have opted out of surgical reconstruction. My body reflects me and my history. My roles in life reflect my personality.

Nothing you have said provides any reason for categorising people in gender identity boxes.

So the existing stereotypes and other multitudes of gender expression are each seen as appropriate and normative in terms of gender expression for either sex.

Women have been presenting and behaving as they wish regardless of expectations for a very, very long time. Only men seem to struggle with this, and I think the reason is fear of loss of status. It has nothing to do with some kind of gendered soul.

Yes, great to compare human beings being unhappy with their gender and changing it to RACISM. Excellent comparison.

The comparison is with the concept of gender.

Women have been denied the right to own property, vote, be recognised legally as people etc. etc. because of gender.

Why should women tiptoe around the fact that the concept of gender identity takes away their basic rights?

The concept of gender can also lead some people to experience extreme and debilitating dysphoria. It is completely possible to differentiate between victims of gender and advocates of gender ideology.

Nothing you have said provides any reason for categorising people in gender identity boxes.

The boxes I am taking about are so expanded they have collapsed into each other.

The boxes I am taking about are so expanded they have collapsed into each other.

So what is the point of having any box?

There are sometimes reasons to classify people by sex. You haven't explained why it is necessary to classify anyone by gender.

I spent my 20s trying to run away from things. I hated being female. I hated myself. I think back about the things i said at the time and my thoughts and actions and there is no way i wouldn't be non binary if i was 19 today.

It took me a long time to recognise that you can't hide or run away from yourself. I didn't fit in with others for various reasons, and I never will. I lacked maturity and emotional security. I got older and realised what all the angst about identity was. I still have massive social anxiety (possibly its aspergers but not sure going down the route of trying to get it formally recognised is particularly helpful).

This is exactly the same thing but asks others to participate and enable it.

Its directly related to lack of self confidence, depression and anxiety. Its related to frustrations about gender stereotypes and the way others treat you in a negative way.

Gender identity is gendered stereotypes and the reinforcement of them. Trans identities legitimise gender stereotypes and advocate hormones and surgery to 'corrrect' what is seen as a problem rather than acknowledging the problem is society's stereotypes. Non binary identities try to reject the stereotypes but fails to accept sex is a material reality that can not be avoided and instead tries to create a bubble of avoidance type behaviour around sex. Non-binary identities also legitimise and perpetuate body dysphoria without trying to resolve underlying issues.

Avoidance type behaviour should be identified not enabled.

Material reality is that sex exists and our bodies just are. We can hate them and we can self harm but we ultimately can't change what we are born because srx is real and exists and the problem is stereotypes not sex.

Thank you RedToothBrush for this post which made me cry! You've expressed how I felt and how I'm sure so many girls have felt in their teens. I worry about my preteen girl who also has some ASD traits and needs role models to help her.

Maybe it helps to have a good role models list? Mine at the moment are Eowyn, Brienne of Tarth, Victoria Wood, Sandi Toksvig and Jackie Weaver! I showed the Jackie Weaver video to my daughter and talked about sexism and how she handled it well.

My only worry is whether too much pushing of great female role models will affect my son negatively - I hope he can learn from great women as well as great men.

There are sometimes reasons to classify people by sex. You haven't explained why it is necessary to classify anyone by gender. Well. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

Just because that's what a lot of people are talking about and doing currently. I was just thinking of ways to steer the conversation leading into a more GC stance.

Anyway, I put my ideas there out for consideration and I think I've posted enough to make my position clear. I will leave you all now (at least for a while) for us all to consider fully what I've said. 

I will leave you all now (at least for a while) for us all to consider fully what I've said. 

But what have you said?

It is indeed very sad. I agree with you OP. Hie many years before we can look back and say. What an utter shut show that decade was. I reckon another 2 years

Have you seen the Swedish documentary I think it's called something like Trans train about young females regretting transitioning?

Shit show

And in case I am accused of confusing non-binary with being transgender there is a degree of cross over and some non-binary people will undergo surgery etc.

This documentary is not about about non-binary but does refer to the medicalisation of trans identified young females.

RedToothBrush bless you that is an excellent post.

Just as an aside there is so much overlap between autisn and 'gender' related issues, plus physical and mental issues and self harm. I don't know why it is not looked into more. (Well I do!)

I think it will be one day.

I believe presenting as neurotyipicsl does put a huge strain on young autistic females.

I think those who suspect autisn, or as it used to be called 'Aspergers', may find it liberating to understand more and make peace with those aspects of themselves

I speak as mum to a wonderful but very challenged autistic daughter.

@merrymouse

So the existing stereotypes and other multitudes of gender expression are each seen as appropriate and normative in terms of gender expression for either sex.

Women have been presenting and behaving as they wish regardless of expectations for a very, very long time. Only men seem to struggle with this, and I think the reason is fear of loss of status. It has nothing to do with some kind of gendered soul.

This is a lightening bolt moment for me, thanks merrymouse.

That is what this movement is about and why it has made such speedy progress. Men what to be able to behave in what were previously unacceptable ways without loss of status, power, influence and income. If they can simultaneously disempower women and return us to domestic and sexual servitude and breeding stock then so much the better from the point of view of far too many of them.

@RaidersoftheLostAardvark

Honestly I feel the analogy to goth culture is spot on - having a 'gender identity' is the current way to be 'different' and 'rebellious'. I was a teen in the late 90s - goth was already a bit old hat, it had moved on to grunge and then it became emo. Teen culture seems to have mutated from emo to gender identity and #bekind. I wonder if the next wave will be a massive reaction to the obsession with gender identity (which is frankly reinforcing conformity to 1950s gender stereotypes) and a throwback to proper punk rebellion? It's a sign of the times that I'm feeling nostalgic for DIY piercings, mohicans and bondage trousers!

I'd say a reaction is pretty near a certainty. You can see the beginnings of it now.

My DD (12) is very into identifying as gay - she may or may not be and I don't mind either way of course. She already has a new NB friends and while i do feel there genuinely is a tiny minority of people who have a profound sense of not being one sex or another, I honestly do think most of these kids adopting it as an identity are just using it to say that they don't like gender stereotypes. But I aslo agree with the view this is retrogressive step as it kind of says 'I can exempt myself from The Rules' and changes nothing for anyone else - so I have gently expressed this to DD. I can see NB identity as being attractive to DD and while I think it's harmless and part of a larger movement that I think is ultimately positive, I'd rather she thought these things through. I have told her that if she wants to challenge gender stereotypes, far better to identify as female and be clear that she knows that she can be a woman in whatever way she likes, she doesn't have to be like this or that to be a woman. I hope that has got through to her while she still seems to respect my opinion!

I'm in HE too and it is sad. I know of students, female and identifying as non binary, sexually harassed (one in the male toilets).

Instead of being recognised as a female issue - their peers jump on it as a transphobic attack/abuse. It must be so confusing to have these opinionated males (however they identify) claiming to defend you, saying the older women around you are somehow to blame but knowing on some level this kind of vulnerability and fear they experienced is borne of being female- hence trying to ID away from it.

It's not possible for women to support each other, instead sexual harassment and assault of these young women is diluted into the myriad of LGBTQIA+ issues, on a par with the pain someone feels at not having a pronoun respected. My heart breaks for how lonely they must feel and how they are still just as vulnerable (and still encouraged by their peers to use male toilets, FFS).

That’s really sad Pug.

It does seem terribly sad.

If you chafe under the stereotypical expectations that society lumps around your sex, why identity out of it and kick the ladder away for others? Why not instead widen the bandwidth by proving that it's completely possible to be male or female without perfectly fitting a load of stereotypes.

I don't think permissive potty-training is really what's behind the trend, though...

pensievepigeon I do basically understand what you're driving at - you're trying to reach people who are already mired in gendered ideology and feel you need to use their own terms in order to do so. I understand that wish to build a bridge.

However, at root what you are advocating for is either appeasement or fighting nonsense with more nonsense and hoping that it will collapse into something resembling sense, without any 'gender ideologists' really noticing.

I think that you will find a pretty swift opposition from certain quarters to anything which seeks to differentiate transwomen from people sexed female. I understand that you think it's sensible to discuss sex and gender as two entirely distinct things entirely divorced from one another - and that is a coherent position to take, whether I agree with it or not - but I think you'll be disappointed if you believe that you will persuade a lot of people on the other side of the fence to agree with you even that far.

If you do, I don't think you'll persuade them to agree that there are many, of any, scenarios in which sex must be considered instead of gender (however defined).

I think that may be where you're losing people here.

*struggle to persuade them, that should have read!

@PawsomePugFancier

I'm in HE too and it is sad. I know of students, female and identifying as non binary, sexually harassed (one in the male toilets).

Instead of being recognised as a female issue - their peers jump on it as a transphobic attack/abuse. It must be so confusing to have these opinionated males (however they identify) claiming to defend you, saying the older women around you are somehow to blame but knowing on some level this kind of vulnerability and fear they experienced is borne of being female- hence trying to ID away from it.

It's not possible for women to support each other, instead sexual harassment and assault of these young women is diluted into the myriad of LGBTQIA+ issues, on a par with the pain someone feels at not having a pronoun respected. My heart breaks for how lonely they must feel and how they are still just as vulnerable (and still encouraged by their peers to use male toilets, FFS).

It's really sad pug.

Pronouns are practically laughed about on here. Gender denied and mocked. Women telling trans people they can do as they like because they don't care, it's THEIR space, we are women. Etc etc

I actually have no personal beef with it as I'm not non binary or trans but some of the things I read, I just think how horrendous for these people to have to see it.

@Italiangreyhound

RedToothBrush bless you that is an excellent post.

Just as an aside there is so much overlap between autisn and 'gender' related issues, plus physical and mental issues and self harm. I don't know why it is not looked into more. (Well I do!)

I think it will be one day.

I believe presenting as neurotyipicsl does put a huge strain on young autistic females.

I think those who suspect autisn, or as it used to be called 'Aspergers', may find it liberating to understand more and make peace with those aspects of themselves

I speak as mum to a wonderful but very challenged autistic daughter.

I'm not entirely sure it's as clear cut as that.

There is a link between autistic girls and gender in some ways, but not at the level the campaigns would have us believe.

My beef with the shoehorning of the autism I to every thread and isn't that awful etc etc is that it somehow implies that people with autism (which obviously is being diagnosed better in girls and therefore numbers are 'rising ' somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans. That somehow their autism means they are prey.

This is absolutely not always the case.

I do agree with you about the struggle to present as NT and perhaps a seeking of finding identify

@Echobelly

My DD (12) is very into identifying as gay - she may or may not be and I don't mind either way of course. She already has a new NB friends and while i do feel there genuinely is a tiny minority of people who have a profound sense of not being one sex or another, I honestly do think most of these kids adopting it as an identity are just using it to say that they don't like gender stereotypes. But I aslo agree with the view this is retrogressive step as it kind of says 'I can exempt myself from The Rules' and changes nothing for anyone else - so I have gently expressed this to DD. I can see NB identity as being attractive to DD and while I think it's harmless and part of a larger movement that I think is ultimately positive, I'd rather she thought these things through. I have told her that if she wants to challenge gender stereotypes, far better to identify as female and be clear that she knows that she can be a woman in whatever way she likes, she doesn't have to be like this or that to be a woman. I hope that has got through to her while she still seems to respect my opinion!

Being gay and being NB are two completely, completely different things.

Horrendous?

It's horrendous for women to hear men constantly tell us being female is a particular state of mind, that they have this ladybrain state, that we must submit to their claims to being female, refer to them as 'she', agree never to refer to our actual bodily state of being female as female, agree that we cannot refuse them access to wherever we are, wherever our daughters are, agree that we are privileged over them, and that any dissent we might offer is hate.

My empathy is with actual female people.
Not with any member of the opposite sex who feels aggrieved that I won't validate his questionable views of womanhood, or call him 'she'.

When the subject matter is what makes female people female, I am certain of one thing.
In the scenario where people expect women to pretend being female is something it isn't? Where the demands go to the heart of redefining what WE are, as women?

The aggressors in that scenario are NOT the women saying NO.