Non binary confused and sad

[Mumteedum]

I am late forties and until now non binary people haven't entered my orbit. I work in HE, and have had plenty of trans students so it's only been a matter of time.

As with any of my students, I will support them and never offer any judgement. I'm grateful that so far my uni does not compel anyone to state pronouns etc.

But I suddenly just feel sad and confused about this whole thing. I sort of 'get' trans even though I recognize the pressures and issues around it.

Non binary to me for a young woman who lives in a female body just feels like a sad thing. That they are rejecting womanhood. I don't understand really. What do they think being a woman is? How can anyone say what feeling male or female is? I look at all these gender definitions and it's just exhausting. I feel sad that being a woman can't mean all the different types of people it always did, anymore.

They have to work out their sexuality and their gender based on vague and confusing definitions. I grew up knowing I fancied boys but never gave a thought to gender beyond not particularly liking stereotypical stuff like dolls and was a bit of a goth in my teens. Have we just replaced teenage identities like goths or whatever, with this gender stuff? I really feel for young people.

Many of my previous trans students have mentioned they should deal with their identity or they must get on with transitioning. It seems so pressured. I didn't have any trans students until about 2015.

I feel old. I am not cis and wont be stating my bluddy pronouns anytime soon. Sorry for the ramble. Just needed to get it out.

@Barracker

Horrendous?

It's horrendous for women to hear men constantly tell us being female is a particular state of mind, that they have this ladybrain state, that we must submit to their claims to being female, refer to them as 'she', agree never to refer to our actual bodily state of being female as female, agree that we cannot refuse them access to wherever we are, wherever our daughters are, agree that we are privileged over them, and that any dissent we might offer is hate.

My empathy is with actual female people.
Not with any member of the opposite sex who feels aggrieved that I won't validate his questionable views of womanhood, or call him 'she'.

When the subject matter is what makes female people female, I am certain of one thing.
In the scenario where people expect women to pretend being female is something it isn't? Where the demands go to the heart of redefining what WE are, as women?

The aggressors in that scenario are NOT the women saying NO.

Yes we get it

You only care about biological females and not the people Pug is talking about. Got it.

They don't matter

I don't understand the sentiment that trans and/or non-binary people, according to many of you, see gender as entirely stereotypes that no one can break out of.

A woman can wear, do, like and express herself however she wants. A woman can be masculine, a woman can have no desire for children, a woman can be the main breadwinner. A woman can use testosterone for decades, shop in the men's section exclusively, use he and him pronouns, refer to himself in whichever fashion and still be a woman (although this has historically been, as far as I know, been an expression of a small group of butch lesbians).

And no trans and/or non-binary people I know will argue against it. If they're women, they're women.

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women. They aren't 'trying to flee stereotypes', none are so foolish to think that transitioning in any manner (from socially with pronouns to whichever extent) will stop them from being at the receiving end of sexual abuse, people talking over them, being sent dick pics or whatever as it doesn't go away. Especially the belief that it's done because of the belief that 'being a trans man is considered more accepted than being a lesbian' baffles me because even trans men who are exclusively attracted to men will have people pressuring them to 'just be a butch lesbian'.

It's like we live in two completely different worlds, when I see many posts here.

Evarish A genuine question - what do non-binary people think a binary person is?

@Barracker

Horrendous?

It's horrendous for women to hear men constantly tell us being female is a particular state of mind, that they have this ladybrain state, that we must submit to their claims to being female, refer to them as 'she', agree never to refer to our actual bodily state of being female as female, agree that we cannot refuse them access to wherever we are, wherever our daughters are, agree that we are privileged over them, and that any dissent we might offer is hate.

My empathy is with actual female people.
Not with any member of the opposite sex who feels aggrieved that I won't validate his questionable views of womanhood, or call him 'she'.

When the subject matter is what makes female people female, I am certain of one thing.
In the scenario where people expect women to pretend being female is something it isn't? Where the demands go to the heart of redefining what WE are, as women?

The aggressors in that scenario are NOT the women saying NO.

Thank you Barracker, I really appreciate your posts.

I am in complete agreement with all you say here.

@WWJackieWeaverD

Evarish A genuine question - what do non-binary people think a binary person is?

I can't reliably tell you what non-binary people think of anything or anyone as I'm not non-binary.

I can tell you that what I think is that the binary is anyone who solely relates themselves as a man or as a woman, whereas non-binary is anyone who relates themselves as a mixture of those binary genders, neither binary genders, a binary gender as well as something else or any variation thereof.

What on earth do you think 'woman' means Evarish?

What do you think women are telling you about themselves when they say "I'm a woman"?
If I stand next to a 'transman', both of us adult, human and female, what do you think differentiates us? We're the same sex. There's a word that works for both of us, and for the billions like us. I'm not going to redefine that word which describes both our material states so that there's NO WORD LEFT for adult human females. There are 3.8 billion female people in the world. We're a biological reality and the words female, girl, woman, they are the words for our biological reality.

@Barracker What does this have to do with what I said?

Evarish OK. Noted that you do not consider yourself to be a non-binary person (and of course I wouldn't expect you to speak for all non-binary people even if you did).

But based on your understanding as you've put it, can you tell me what you mean when you say "relates themselves as a man"? I'm not being facetious - it's an unusual construction (at least to me). Do you mean "thinks of themself as a man" or "presents themself as a man" or something else?

And when you talk about the "binary genders" of man and woman, I would ask what those genders are but appreciate that is pointlessly a very involved question. Perhaps I can I ask instead in what sense they are binary?

*possibly! I certainly don't think it's pointless!

Would hate to be a girl or young woman today. Forced stereotyping doesn’t help anyone & that is what it feels like is being enforced. Gender reinforces nothing good

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women

Hence my question. If a hypothetical 'transman' and I are both adult human females, what do you think 'woman' means for you to believe I'm one, but she is not?

@jules0607

Would hate to be a girl or young woman today. Forced stereotyping doesn’t help anyone & that is what it feels like is being enforced. Gender reinforces nothing good

I would hate to be a young woman told 'but we are doing this for YOU' and forced to reject gender and disregard the feelings of trans

I grew up in the 80/90s and although I was aware of gender it just wasn’t a big deal to me to be a Tomboy. In fact in many ways it was quite cool to go against the “girly girl” stereotype and I had a lot of boyfriends along the way

I never identified completely with the gender stereotypes for girls / women but I never once thought it meant I needed another label. I just somehow knew that I didn’t have to conform, gender was just a made up set of “things” which I could pick and choose from. Yes I like make up and wear my hair long but I also loved big boots, jeans, leather jackets and the androgynous look. I didn’t care that I didn’t fit a tick list and neither did any of my friends care if they did or didn’t. We were too busy with other stuff.

Now I am GC.

I don’t have an issue with someone claiming to be non binary if that’s the way they want to describe themselves but it’s irrelevant to me on a personal level because I totally believe gender doesn’t really exist outside of our cultural definitions. So by saying you are non binary you are the same as me in that we don’t fit out prescribed gender tick box but you want a label and I don’t need a label.

I definitely think a lot of it is about rejection of womanhood. A lot of it is about teenage angst and trying to find a place to fit.

I think gender and sex issues are what eating disorders were in the 90s.

@Barracker

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women

Hence my question. If a hypothetical 'transman' and I are both adult human females, what do you think 'woman' means for you to believe I'm one, but she is not?

I don't understand the question, transman isn't a word that exists.

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women. Then what is a transman if not a woman?

The use of "non-binary" baffles me as well. If a person says "I don't identify as female or male and am non binary" then what? Notwithstanding the person's thoughts and feelings they will still have a female or male sexed body with all that goes with it in the world today.

Thoughts don't change the way others view one and how one is treated, based solely on the presence of a sexed body. It doesn't matter how the body is dressed, the haircut, presence or not of makeup and nail varnish, others look and know they are looking at a woman or a man and act accordingly.

Because of gender stereotypes women are treated as "other", with suspicion and as second class citizens wholly because of our physical bodies and presence in the world. Insisting on gendered anything only cements the denigration of women merely for existing.

Gender denied and mocked

Best thing to do with it.

Evarish Perhaps I've missed the point - and please forgive me if I've wrongly surmised that you are looking to avoid a query on the basis of the lack of a single typed space - but does this help you to understand the question..?

"If a hypothetical 'trans man' and I are both adult human females, what do you think 'woman' means for you to believe I'm one, but she is not?"

@Evarish so what do you call a woman transitioning to be a man?

@ChewtonRoad

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women. Then what is a transman if not a woman?

The use of "non-binary" baffles me as well. If a person says "I don't identify as female or male and am non binary" then what? Notwithstanding the person's thoughts and feelings they will still have a female or male sexed body with all that goes with it in the world today.

Thoughts don't change the way others view one and how one is treated, based solely on the presence of a sexed body. It doesn't matter how the body is dressed, the haircut, presence or not of makeup and nail varnish, others look and know they are looking at a woman or a man and act accordingly.

Because of gender stereotypes women are treated as "other", with suspicion and as second class citizens wholly because of our physical bodies and presence in the world. Insisting on gendered anything only cements the denigration of women merely for existing.

Gender denied and mocked

Best thing to do with it.

Well yes, the best thing to do it you want to be transphobic.

Your argument about their sexed body is nonsense. That's not their gender.

I don't understand the question, transman isn't a word that exists.

and yet you used the plural "trans men" yourself. Does that phrase not exist either?

I won't argue much further on the subject of what does and doesn't really exist though. It skates too close to the truth.

Here's my quote for the day instead:

How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg?
Four.
Saying that a tail is a leg doesn't make it a leg.

~Abraham Lincoln~

RootyT00t do you have any evidence about how common autism is for those identifying as trans? Particularly those born female?

"...not at the level the campaigns would have us believe." What campaigns?

I only have anicdotal evidence. The anicdotal evidence I have is that it is very common.

@Italiangreyhound

RootyT00t do you have any evidence about how common autism is for those identifying as trans? Particularly those born female?

"...not at the level the campaigns would have us believe." What campaigns?

I only have anicdotal evidence. The anicdotal evidence I have is that it is very common.

The campaigns of the posters on here.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but as someone with a fair bit of knowledge of autism, it's not as clean cut as that.

RootyT00t does your knowledge of autism include teenagers, pre teens and early 20s and born female? If so, and not many of them are trans, then I would expect you to draw that conclusion.

How many teenagers, pre teens and early 20s born female who are currently identifying as trans do you know? Because once you start to talk to the parents of these young people you may find that autism, mental health issues, physical health issues etc are very common.

It makes me wonder what is going on but there is very little research into this

@Italiangreyhound

RootyT00t does your knowledge of autism include teenagers, pre teens and early 20s and born female? If so, and not many of them are trans, then I would expect you to draw that conclusion.

How many teenagers, pre teens and early 20s born female who are currently identifying as trans do you know? Because once you start to talk to the parents of these young people you may find that autism, mental health issues, physical health issues etc are very common.

It makes me wonder what is going on but there is very little research into this

Yes.

I know one trans and one non binary.

I'm not convinced their autism caused them to make that decision, but if it was you who said it or whoever did I can see the argument that their search to find their identify may have stemmed from their autism rather than a gender issue.

My annoyance around the topic is that 'trans exploiting autistic teenagers' appears every thread and in cases where the real aim of the thread is making points about toilets etc, I think it's a cheap trick as it then descends into 'you must not care about these poor autistic girls'.

And "My beef with the shoehorning of the autism I to every thread and isn't that awful etc etc is that it somehow implies that people with autism (which obviously is being diagnosed better in girls and therefore numbers are 'rising ' somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans. That somehow their autism means they are prey.

This is absolutely not always the case."

I don't know how you can conclude any if this with the lack of research there is.

"...somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans."

What you seem to be arguing is it's fine for autistic youth to be trans ... but I am saying not that it is not ok but that maybe there are reasons why this demographic has so much in common.

@Italiangreyhound

And "My beef with the shoehorning of the autism I to every thread and isn't that awful etc etc is that it somehow implies that people with autism (which obviously is being diagnosed better in girls and therefore numbers are 'rising ' somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans. That somehow their autism means they are prey.

This is absolutely not always the case."

I don't know how you can conclude any if this with the lack of research there is.

"...somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans."

What you seem to be arguing is it's fine for autistic youth to be trans ... but I am saying not that it is not ok but that maybe there are reasons why this demographic has so much in common.

I'm not saying it's fine, per se.

I'm saying it doesn't do much for autistic young people if they are deemed unable to make their own choices.