An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

So is the idea now that we have:

a) Sex, b) Gender Expression, c) Gender Identity

So, for me, I am a) Female (due to my biology), b) Indeterminate (expression in line with current societal expectations of both genders), c) ???

According to some, c) would be female if I answer yes to the question 'Are you a woman?' but if I take that question to be about a) not c) then that tells us the answer to a) only. Without relying on a), I have no idea what the answer to c) is.

However, using PP's approach my answer to b) could potentially be either male or female as societal expectations of the genders are expanded.

This still doesn't help with c) but PP suggests that answering a question about gender identity is a form of gender expression and so these two will align but does that work in the other direction ie if I know b) can I work out the answer to c)? But I can't work out b) anyway, either using current societal expectations or a widening of these which would only leave me with an equal choice.

So, I know I am a) Female and I think that's probably about it.

@DadJoke, why do you think it is important to ask people about their gender identity (or lack of identity) if you can't trust whether what they say correlates to their actual identity?

You, yourself mistrust what posters on here have said about their gender identity or lack of it. So why are people advocating asking this question?

And me, I am female sex, my gender identity is female (because my personal identity correlates with my sex) and my gender expression is female because I say so.

@pensivepigeon I’m not defining terms on the fly, just saying how they are used technically. In that context “expression” doesn’t mean talking.

@pensivepigeon And me, I am female sex, my gender identity is female (because my personal identity correlates with my sex

Anyway, I think we are entirely on the same page here.

I’m not defining terms on the fly, just saying how they are used technically. In that context “expression” doesn’t mean talking.

@DadJoke

What is your reference point? Many people would say speech and language expression is used in forms of gender expression. There are stereotypes regarding female and male expressive language. And as gender is a cultural concept, doesn't what people say go?

Anyway, I think we are entirely on the same page here.

But can you trust what I say?

Anyway, if people agreed with the definition I gave for gender, it just wouldn't matter what people said their gender was. An infinite variety of gender expressions would be simply accepted. None of these forms of gender expression would be assigned to a particular sex.

People still might be asked their sex, in certain circumstances, so specialised provision could be made, in terms of biological needs and upholding protected characteristics in law.

Anyway, if people agreed with the definition I gave for gender, it just wouldn't matter what people said their gender was.

If only everyone just agreed with everyone else life would be just swell.

Wouldn't it just, @jellyfrizz ..

@pensivepigeon you are right. I was making the very narrow point that saying “I am a woman” is not gender expression.

Please quote properly, Dadjoke, it's difficult to parse your posts and tell what you are quoting and which are your own words. The MN convention is either to use the quote function or to italicise or bold the text you are quoting. You can do this by putting either * for bold or ^ for italic on either side of the text you wish to quote or otherwise highlight.

I was making the very narrow point that saying “I am a woman” is not gender expression

Nor is it a gender identity in the specific way TRAs mean.

They might also have small gametes and attribute their gender identity to their sex.

If they have small gametes they are male, not female. Try a biology textbook before lecturing women with your pomo nonsense.

Women's requirement and need for single sex provisions are not some perceived silly idea to annoy others, if you actually have respect for others and things like intersectionality find a better solution please than trying to argue society into excluding some women from anything so that others can have freedom of choice and preference of spaces. Answers need to work for all

........and we come back to 'Third Spaces'. Use the services and facilities that match your sex, or else campaign for your own special provisions.

Things have moved on considerably from the days of a few fully transitioned transexuals; who knew they were not female, and who didn't attempt the enforcement of convoluted mental constructs on the rest of the world.

If this is all just about 'being yourself' in order to live a life free of restrictive stereotypes - then just get on with it. You do not need to enforce a whole world view and its associated ideological and mental constructs on to everyone else.

If you don't feel your demographic is catered for, then campaign for the spaces and services that you feel you need in order to feel safe, and have dignity.

Things have moved on considerably from the days of a few fully transitioned transexuals; who knew they were not female, and who didn't attempt the enforcement of convoluted mental constructs on the rest of the world.

YY, exactly.

@pensivepigeon you are right. I was making the very narrow point that saying “I am a woman” is not gender expression.

@DadJoke

I just don't get that. How is verbally expressing your gender not a form of gender expression?

@Ereshkigalangcleg If they have small gametes they are male, not female. Try a biology textbook before lecturing women with your pomo nonsense.

Sorry - a typo. The psychological and medical consensus on gender identity is not "post-modernism," any more than the consensus on sexuality is. Denying it requires an ideological commitment against the evidence.

If a 'gender expression' is just an individual expressing themselves; and if 'a gender identity' is a fixed set of characteristics one feels one has....I'm not sure what either has got to do with anyone else? Just get on with it.

Why all of this long winded, interminable, painful and downright unnecessary desire to force it on the rest of the world?

There is no consensus that "gender identity "works in the same way genderists like you claim it does. The fact that people are aware there are two different types of bodies and they have one of them is hardly Earth-shattering news.

So much garble and obfuscation.....

Sorry just my response was not to you.

First world problems......

Sorry just my response was not to you

I know! Thanks!

this thread does hone one's skills, if nothing else