An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

[quote DadJoke]@Biscuitsanddoombar it's an analogy. Gender identity and sexuality are both qualities with high hereditabilty, and both qualities are accepted and documented by medical and psychological bodies. The difference between the two is that the gender critical accept one but not the other.

@jellyfrizz if you answer the question "am I am woman?" yes, then that's your gender identity. If that doesn't match your sex at birth, you are trans. Otherwise you are not. This is all very well documented in psychological literature. Perhaps start there?[/quote]
Well, it depends what definition of woman you are using. If it has nothing to do with biology then, no, I am not a woman. There is not much about 'woman' that I identify with other than the biology.

@DadJoke but if gender expression is no indicator of gender identity, then, if someone answers that they are woman, it doesn't necessarily bear any firm relation to their gender identity. Perhaps they are just describing their sex?

Answering a question is an expression, in that it expresses an opinion or fact.

& even the biology I'm not hugely attached to but accept that is my body.

To which you would be asked why it affects you where people pee (unless you are watching, you pervert)? & Are you saying that all trans people are predators?

To which I would draw their attention to the provision made in toilets made for the biological needs and then explain how single sex areas provide safe spaces for people protected in law.

@MichelleofzeResistance if you want to deny the existence of an established medical and psychological phenomenon, you go you . It isn't an insult, any more than saying "everyone has a sexuality."

You believe whatever you want to believe, go for it. Don't enforce your belief on me, I do not share it. I don't fit into your boxes on your terms, and I'm somewhat amazed that you're being rude enough to try and insist. Another person over here, with feelings and thoughts and a reality that isn't wholly dictated by you and your personal rules.

And if gender expression does not necessarily correlate with gender identity, what is the point of asking someone about their gender identity? Whatever answer they express may or may not bear any relation to any actual gender identity they possess.

@pensivepigeon

To which you would be asked why it affects you where people pee (unless you are watching, you pervert)? & Are you saying that all trans people are predators?

To which I would draw their attention to the provision made in toilets made for the biological needs and then explain how single sex areas provide safe spaces for people protected in law.

Have you really never done this for real pensive? Responses would be:

Well, there are men who need to wee sitting down and have to use urinary pads, should THEY use the female toilets if it's all about need? HUH?

And

A sign on the door isn't going to stop anyone who wants to assault a woman. Trans women are far more at risk of violence. They have been using women's toilets for millions of years without incident.

@pensivepigeon if someone says that they are a woman, their gender indetity is female. They might also have small gametes and attribute their gender identity to their sex. If sex and gender identity align, they are not trans and their is no conflict.

@pensivepigeon And if gender expression does not necessarily correlate with gender identity, what is the point of asking someone about their gender identity? Whatever answer they express may or may not bear any relation to any actual gender identity they possess.

I don't understand the question. If a woman wears clothes that are atypical for women, it doesn't stop them being a woman. Gender identity correlates with gender expression.

Trans women are far more at risk of violence.

To which I would say I am in favour in making male spaces safer in order to protect them.

A sign on the door isn't going to stop anyone who wants to assault a woman.

To which I would say that it wouldn't protect a trans woman either.

Totally disagree with you OP. Sex is biological and fixed. "Gender", as in stereotypes, to me is neither here nor there, it's irrelevant to one's sex. And services, spaces, sports etc should be based on sex, not stereotypes.

@MichelleofzeResistanceYou believe whatever you want to believe, go for it. Don't enforce your belief on me, I do not share it. I don't fit into your boxes on your terms, and I'm somewhat amazed that you're being rude enough to try and insist. Another person over here, with feelings and thoughts and a reality that isn't wholly dictated by you and your personal rules

I am not insisting on anything. You are absolutely welcome to not believe in sexuiality, gender identity, proprioception, or climate change. You be you.

@pensivepigeon if you genuinely believe that people are pretending to be transgender in order to enter bathrooms are you going to be inspecting their genitals if they are not gender conforming?

If bathrooms are divide on sex, and your unfounded fear of increased danger to women is that people will pretend to be transgender, why are you not concerned that cis men will pretend to be trans men to enter single sex bathrooms? It sounds nonsensical, doesn't it?

"I can just tell" didn't work with gay people, either.

"Your gender identity and expression do not have to match". ( your post at 16.50)

@DadJoke. Answering a question regarding gender identity is a form of expressing your gender in the answering of the question.

I am not insisting on anything.

Oh good Then can you please rephrase your earlier statement of 'everyone has a gender identity' and your subsequent attempt to press this on me as some compulsory objective reality to 'some people believe that everyone has a gender identity'?

DadJoke
Can you see that by de-linking woman from biology, you are taking away my identity. Using your definition of woman I do not know what my gender identity is. What am I supposed to be identifying with if not biology or gender stereotypes?

You'll also find the word 'cis' is a banned one here if you check posting guidelines. People may report you and have your posts deleted if you breach the guidelines.

Women's requirement and need for single sex provisions are not some perceived silly idea to annoy others, if you actually have respect for others and things like intersectionality find a better solution please than trying to argue society into excluding some women from anything so that others can have freedom of choice and preference of spaces. Answers need to work for all.

[quote DadJoke]@MichelleofzeResistance if you want to deny the existence of an established medical and psychological phenomenon, you go you . It isn't an insult, any more than saying "everyone has a sexuality."

@Kit19 everyone has a sexuality. People can believe they don't have one if they want if it makes them happy.[/quote]
So you think that asexual people are all secretly straight (or gay) and their belief that they don't experience sexual attraction is a mistaken one?

Or do you count asexuality as a sexuality, and being genderless as a gender (and, presumably, atheism as a religion)?

@AradiaGC

There is a difference between being non-binary and thinking gender identity doesn't exist. Asexual people don't think sexuality doesn't exist.

GC people don't think they are agender. They just say that gender identity doesn't exist.

@pensivepigeon if you genuinely believe that people are pretending to be transgender in order to enter bathrooms are you going to be inspecting their genitals if they are not gender conforming?

No, absolutely not. However, provision needs to be made according to the law for single sex safe spaces. Women that have suffered trauma due to men's violence are vulnerable, could be suffering from post traumatic shock and their wellbeing is protected by law. Not all trans women pass very well and can still be as physically very intimidating to these vulnerable women, whether they mean to be or not. There is a reason these laws exist. Equally, I believe male toilets should be made safe for biological male people of every gender identity and expression.

Do we have an inner species-identity too? For some reason I have always strongly had the sense that I am a human being. I've never even questioned it. Am I one of the lucky cis-species ones?

@pensivepigeon ah, sorry I think I get you now. Gender expression isn't what you say your gender is, it's how you express yourself in clothing, roles, etc.

. Gender expression isn't what you say your gender is, it's how you express yourself in clothing, roles, etc.

@DadJoke

But your speech is an expression as much as clothing and roles are. In linguistics we use the term 'Expressive language'. So I think you are wrong, there.

GC people don't think they are agender. They just say that gender identity doesn't exist.

So we're STILL in 'people don't really not believe in God, they just say that they don't believe in Him.'

No, not everyone fits in your world and your boxes and your forcible categorisations of them. Not deluded heathens ripe for conversion to your One True Faith, but of other faiths. Or atheist. This kind of intolerance of others and the forced evangelism is beyond rude, not to mention highly arrogant.

Done with this conversation.

@DadJoke

I'm asexual. I recognise that other people experience sexual attraction, but I don't. I'm also GC. I recognise that some people experience an inner feeling that they call gender identity. I don't. I experience 'gender' solely as limiting stereotypes. It's not part of my identity in any way.

To me, telling me that I must have a gender identity whether I know it or not, because everyone does, is like telling me that I'm not asexual, I just haven't met the right man yet, because all (adult) humans are sexual. It's equally dismissive.