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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

History in the making! Watch Parliament Live at 2.30pm!

999 replies

Sunkisses · 25/02/2021 14:19

According to @SexMattersOrg on Twitter the Govt have backed down on the MOMA (Maternity) Bill and will now use the word 'mother' not 'person' in the legislation!

Women did this! We are winning!

Tune in live here at 2.30pm to see history in the making: www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3ca1efa2-16a5-489d-a5a0-5d929bff81f6

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8
picklemewalnuts · 26/02/2021 21:03

Wonderful testimonies, thank you.

Enoughisenough2021 · 26/02/2021 21:10

I watched the debate in the Lords yesterday having never given much thought to any of this stuff before. I was trying to explain the whole thing to DH and DD this evening but have had too much red wine I couldn’t articulate my thoughts at all!
DH hasn’t given it much thought but is a reasonable man and DD is only 13 so doesn’t really see it all as very important! Are there any sensible, well written articles that I can direct them to about why we can’t eradicate all these words from our language!

Waspnest · 26/02/2021 21:12

I would love a T-shirt with '#Mums the word' on it. Is anyone making them?

Endofthelinefinally · 26/02/2021 21:12

Somebody earlier expressed it very well. I am sorry I can't remember, but something to the effect that if you cannot define a group using language, words, you cannot protect them in law.

boatyardblues · 26/02/2021 21:19

@Endofthelinefinally

Somebody earlier expressed it very well. I am sorry I can't remember, but something to the effect that if you cannot define a group using language, words, you cannot protect them in law.
That was Baroness Finlay. She only spoke briefly but that line was brilliant. The whole debate in a nutshell.
BarbaraofKent · 26/02/2021 21:22

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I'm so sorry about your friend, End. I agree, it is a total waste and desperately sad.

We know this - if a female person has an early menopuase she is given HRT because we KNOW that without it she will have a higher risk of coronary heart disease, dementia and osteoporosis.

The NICE guidelines say that if you are under 45 and menopausal you should be given HRT. So, what happens if you are 17 and you make yourself menopausal by taking testosterone? Well, I personally hope that having a gender issue has some magical protective quality, because that appears to be what medicine is banking on.

The female athletes who were doped (without consent) in the 80s died young. Flo Jo doped and won everything and died at 38.

We know what will happen to these kids...and yet, my DD who is 17 has THREE friends who are all now on testosterone, which they cutesily call "T", and they are excited about their double mastectomies, which they cutesily call "top surgery".

I look at them and I get choked up. They are lovely kids, they really are. I've known two of them since they were toddlers. If they said they were lesbians no one would have cared, it would have been an non-issue in their family or their friends or their school or Scouts or judo or drama or any of the groups they belong to. One of the kids mum says to me that she thinks that her child is gay and she is just hoping that the kid comes to their senses soon.

I can't imagine how the mum must juggle the angst of watching what Keira Bell brought to the public eye, whilst also taking my child for the same treatment. That mother is terrified that her kid will self harm, she can't think past the bullshit that Mermaids has told her since her child first expressed a gender issue at 12 years old. She's had nearly 5 years of worrying that her kid will die if they don't pander to the child's EARNEST desire to get to a gender clinic.

The whole thing makes me angry, truly, I am incandescent. I grew up under section 28, no one was allowed to be gay when I was at school and once I was a student I was surrounded by joyously butch female and effeminate male friends. It was just wonderful - we honestly thought we had sorted this shit out in the 90s.

Where the fuck are the butch women now? Where are the role models for the little baby butch girls? Who does my friend's child look up to and think "yeah, she's cool"? It's appalling, society, and Stonewall has erased gay women far more effectively than Margaret Thatcher managed.

That is why I get so fucking livid when we get some moron saying "have you ever thought about the trans community? Eh? HAVE YOU?" on threads like this.

Yes mate, yes I have. I think about little else. I just disagree with you that the whole world should pretend that this is fine.

I'm just quoting this again, because it's just worth quoting again.

This, this right here ^^ is why they hate MN so much. Because posts like this join the dots, drag this stuff right out into the sunlight, make it clear why this whole ideology is so harmful.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria Flowers

PamDenick · 26/02/2021 21:23

Thank you Baroness Finlay too then…

I see Platinum didn't come back then…

BarbaraofKent · 26/02/2021 21:24

And now I feel so angry all over again at the whole thing!

ListeningQuietly · 26/02/2021 21:33

I am GC
Both my (young adult) kids are woke
We do not discuss it.
I am biding my time.

PamDenick · 26/02/2021 21:37

My 11 year old is woke.
I don't know where it game from…

PamDenick · 26/02/2021 21:37

came

Waspnest · 26/02/2021 21:46

My 11 year old is woke.

So is my 14 yo. Due to that Jammie Dodger YouTuber. But I think she's wavering. We don't argue, I just say she's entitled to her views, I'm entitled to mine.

But I will be crossing out 'gender' and replacing it with 'sex' on the school LFT consent forms whether she likes it or not.

cheeseismydownfall · 26/02/2021 21:49

@Enoughisenough2021

I watched the debate in the Lords yesterday having never given much thought to any of this stuff before. I was trying to explain the whole thing to DH and DD this evening but have had too much red wine I couldn’t articulate my thoughts at all! DH hasn’t given it much thought but is a reasonable man and DD is only 13 so doesn’t really see it all as very important! Are there any sensible, well written articles that I can direct them to about why we can’t eradicate all these words from our language!
I'm really surprised that your 13 year old isn't aware of the issues (pleasantly surprised, but still surprised). I first opened the discussion with my DCs last year, when the eldest was 12, and in Y7. I assumed I would be introducing the ideas to them for the first time, but the eldest apparently has already had two classmates come out as trans in the first term of Y7, with a couple more "considering it". I'm really glad I raised it when I did and had the opportunity to discuss to different perspectives with them. All I can do is watch and anxiously wait, and hope their common sense prevails over the next few years.
ChateauMargaux · 26/02/2021 21:52

But they didn't include the word 'woman'... because that word is taken...

ListeningQuietly · 26/02/2021 21:53

My kids think JK is a witch
I'll wait

gardenbird48 · 26/02/2021 22:01

@JiggeryWokery

I was mulling all of this over on my walk this morning and one thing really struck me - this idea that seems to be in danger of getting embedded in laws: that men can have get pregnant and give birth. Just like women. I can't quite articulate my problem with it (apart from the blimmin' obvious), just that if you divorce women's rights and maternity rights from any female-specific physical reality, then our protections lose their meaning. Sorry I can't put it any better!

This is where it ends up. If you start blurring the lines it won't end well for women...

Part of the trial court’s reasoning was, according to Galen Sherwin of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), “that even if Angela had been fired because she was breastfeeding, that was not sex discrimination, in part because men can lactate under certain circumstances.”

This reasoning is used to defeat Ames attempt to demonstrate that she was a member of a protected class and suffered an adverse employment action due to discrimination based on her membership in this class. Breastfeeding mothers are not seen as being in a protected class based on sex, because men can also lactate.

(A man may been able to induce a chemically produced liquid that a deranged, highly paid doctor announced to be 'lactation' that is unlikely to be remotely healthy for an infant to ingest, much less sustain life - it is not the same as breastfeeding).

campbelllawobserver.com/men-can-lactate-too-breastfeeding-mom-loses-discrimination-case/

Enoughisenough2021 · 26/02/2021 22:06

I probably phrased it wrong- DD didn’t think ‘person’ was that big a deal. Gets most of her views from TikTok..... what I meant is that I think she is too young to realise the importance of using mother, woman etc. Which is why I was trying to engage her in discussion. She is at an all girls school and they are fully inclusive, a few girls identify as boys etc, very LGBT friendly etc but the head is very formidable and I think she would be fully behind the Lords type debate and hope she would stand up for her girls. I am going to educate myself a bit more and instigate some dinner time discussions! She did an essay on the suffragettes today ( v the suffragists?? ( never heard of them?!) so tried to tie that into everything we’d had to fight for in terms of votes for women, education etc and you can’t just delete the word woman.

gardenbird48 · 26/02/2021 22:13

@MichelleofzeResistance

You know that darkest hour in films, where the plucky heroes have been battling away for hours, defeating a series of foes, only to look up and realise that they are surrounded by a host of enemies covering the entire area, as far as the eye can see?

That bit where you can see in their eyes that they've realised their position is hopeless, and they summon all their courage and decide to go down fighting, because they are doomed whatever they do? The darkest hour when you really don't want to watch any longer because it is so hopeless and sad. Then, after all hope is lost, someone hears a distant trumpet call, something is happening on the horizon, and all of a sudden unexpected reinforcements come pouring over the hills on all sides (or in attack helicopters/space ships depending on the film)? Arriving just in time to sweep the enemy hordes before them and grant a reprieve to the embattled warriors?

Well, that's how it felt listening to the HoL debate the Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Bill yesterday. No wonder so many of us were fighting back tears of relief.

Oh this. This this this. Nailed it precisely. That's JUST how it felt.

ooh that's made me feel all tingly. That is EXACTLY how it felt!!

I love the House of Lords (I did actually support them before as I've seen what they've achieved and also debated what the alternative might be and it's not great and I genuinely think most of them are totally decent people) and the world is looking like a slightly more normal place today.

It gives me strength to push even harder - having gone through childbirth (as so many of us have), that feeling of pushing the hardest you can possibly manage, then the midwife says, 'right, do that again' and then you keep going at your absolute maximum for another few hours until it stops.

That is our advantage here - anything after pushing a baby out is a breeze. We will do this! Flowers Flowers to all!

JiggeryWokery · 26/02/2021 22:20

The idea that men can lactate (in the sense of feeding an infant) is not one that should be enshrined in law.

ListeningQuietly · 26/02/2021 22:25

Too many women still die due to gynae problems for it EVER to be pretended that
mothers should not have clear defined rights

not all women can become pregnant
but ONLY women can become pregnant

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 26/02/2021 22:26

Some men are able to produce liquid from their nipples, mind. It would be unkind to suggest it's not possible.

How nourishing it is for a baby I have no idea.

ListeningQuietly · 26/02/2021 22:30

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Some men are able to produce liquid from their nipples, mind. It would be unkind to suggest it's not possible.

How nourishing it is for a baby I have no idea.

Scientific reference please
Xanthangum · 26/02/2021 22:31

Stonewall has erased gay women far more effectively than Margaret Thatcher managed.

Oh my god. This. Is. The. Truth.

BoreOfWhabylon · 26/02/2021 22:54

@ListeningQuietly it's called galactorrhoea. Much more common in women but can occur in men.

patient.info/doctor/galactorrhoea

Galactorrhoea is much more common in women than in men. It is most common in women of reproductive age, but can occur in nulliparous women, menopausal women, and men. In women it may be physiological but in men it is always pathological.

Taswama · 26/02/2021 22:54

You lot are amazing.