History in the making! Watch Parliament Live at 2.30pm!

[Sunkisses]

According to @SexMattersOrg on Twitter the Govt have backed down on the MOMA (Maternity) Bill and will now use the word 'mother' not 'person' in the legislation!

Women did this! We are winning!

Tune in live here at 2.30pm to see history in the making: www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3ca1efa2-16a5-489d-a5a0-5d929bff81f6

@Barracker

If the purported mental health of someone rests upon legally preventing millions of mothers from being recognised as or called mothers then I've decided that on balance, I can live with the consequences.

I've never found "My mental health is dependant upon my enacting considerable unjustifiable harm to you" to be a terribly persuasive argument.

God, so this with fucking bells on.

You know that darkest hour in films, where the plucky heroes have been battling away for hours, defeating a series of foes, only to look up and realise that they are surrounded by a host of enemies covering the entire area, as far as the eye can see?

That bit where you can see in their eyes that they've realised their position is hopeless, and they summon all their courage and decide to go down fighting, because they are doomed whatever they do? The darkest hour when you really don't want to watch any longer because it is so hopeless and sad. Then, after all hope is lost, someone hears a distant trumpet call, something is happening on the horizon, and all of a sudden unexpected reinforcements come pouring over the hills on all sides (or in attack helicopters/space ships depending on the film)? Arriving just in time to sweep the enemy hordes before them and grant a reprieve to the embattled warriors?

Well, that's how it felt listening to the HoL debate the Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Bill yesterday. No wonder so many of us were fighting back tears of relief.

Oh this. This this this. Nailed it precisely. That's JUST how it felt.

If the purported mental health of someone rests upon legally preventing millions of mothers from being recognised as or called mothers then I've decided that on balance, I can live with the consequences.

I've never found "My mental health is dependent upon my enacting considerable unjustifiable harm to you" to be a terribly persuasive argument.

And this. ^^

God the women around here are articulate.

Actually, Platinum, I do think about the mental health and safety of transgender and NB people.

There is no evidence that the current affirmation model or making people life long patients improves their distress or dysphoric symptoms. There might be an initial elation, but it does not seem to be long lived.

I think it would be better practice to help people accept their bodies and the reality that you cannot change sex, rather than pretend that taking medication which has horrible side effects, and having surgery which is complex and unsatisfactory and trying to make the whole world behave as cheer leaders will solve a person's problems.

It doesn't work. There are going to be many transmen die young because of the side effects of the testosterone they are taking.

I think of them often and I wish it wasn't allowed. "First do no harm" does not have the caveat "unless you really, really want this".

Tell me, have you ever spoken to a detransitioner? In my experience they often have an interesting view point.

It doesn't work. There are going to be many transmen die young because of the side effects of the testosterone they are taking.

A friend who transitioned in their early 20s (M to F) died suddenly, aged 40, from a massive stroke. This was attributed to the hormones they had been taking over 20 years. What a waste of the life of a kind and gentle person. I suspect that their transition was related to social and cultural expectations as much as anything else. I think we are going to see an awful lot more morbidity and mortality going forward.
But nobody is allowed to say that either.

Do any of you ever pause to think about the effect that your attitudes and posts have on the mental health and safety of trans men and women?

It is absolutely right to consider any party affected by any legislation.

Women still need language to describe the rights they need because of sex. Have you thought about why this bill is necessary, and why it is so central to the rights of people whose sex is female (including those who do not want to identify as women)?

It is wrong to suggest that women's rights should not be discussed because it might damage other's mental health or threaten their safety. That tactic is very similar to coercive control. If any posts on this thread break the site guidelines, you should report them. Unlike other sites moderation is done by people and they are quick to respond.

I’ve just fired off my 23 emails! Time for and possibly some too

@Endofthelinefinally

It doesn't work. There are going to be many transmen die young because of the side effects of the testosterone they are taking.

A friend who transitioned in their early 20s (M to F) died suddenly, aged 40, from a massive stroke. This was attributed to the hormones they had been taking over 20 years. What a waste of the life of a kind and gentle person. I suspect that their transition was related to social and cultural expectations as much as anything else. I think we are going to see an awful lot more morbidity and mortality going forward.
But nobody is allowed to say that either.

I'm sorry for your loss .

I had heard that hormones increase the risk of heart disease and stroke for MTF people, and the risk increases the longer they take them but I this is the first time I've heard about it in "real life".

The way organisations like Gender GP promote transition as no big deal is nothing short of criminal in my opinion.

Welcome to Mumsnet Platinum78
As so many have pointed out - this is about women, mothers, pregnancy and birthing. But thank you for calling in to lecture women.

I've never found "My mental health is dependent upon my enacting considerable unjustifiable harm to you" to be a terribly persuasive argument.

Agreed. Notionally, the mental health of many people is dependent upon their ability to carry out domestic or intimate partner violence. VAWG is a public health problem. I still think that substantial efforts to reduce and seek to eliminate all of those would be worthwhile. Even when it conflicts with some people's perception of their spiritual beliefs or personal autonomy.

@Platinum78

Wow, another 32 pages of anti-trans based triumphalism. To state that 'Women did this!' is, in my opinion, overstating the case. A small number of women, aided and abetted by some newspapers and celebrities have succeeded in spreading fear across the land. Fear triggers prejudice and sows the seeds of hatred. Do any of you ever pause to think about the effect that your attitudes and posts have on the mental health and safety of trans men and women?

Oh the humanity!

I'm so sorry about your friend, End. I agree, it is a total waste and desperately sad.

We know this - if a female person has an early menopuase she is given HRT because we KNOW that without it she will have a higher risk of coronary heart disease, dementia and osteoporosis.

The NICE guidelines say that if you are under 45 and menopausal you should be given HRT. So, what happens if you are 17 and you make yourself menopausal by taking testosterone? Well, I personally hope that having a gender issue has some magical protective quality, because that appears to be what medicine is banking on.

The female athletes who were doped (without consent) in the 80s died young. Flo Jo doped and won everything and died at 38.

We know what will happen to these kids...and yet, my DD who is 17 has THREE friends who are all now on testosterone, which they cutesily call "T", and they are excited about their double mastectomies, which they cutesily call "top surgery".

I look at them and I get choked up. They are lovely kids, they really are. I've known two of them since they were toddlers. If they said they were lesbians no one would have cared, it would have been an non-issue in their family or their friends or their school or Scouts or judo or drama or any of the groups they belong to. One of the kids mum says to me that she thinks that her child is gay and she is just hoping that the kid comes to their senses soon.

I can't imagine how the mum must juggle the angst of watching what Keira Bell brought to the public eye, whilst also taking my child for the same treatment. That mother is terrified that her kid will self harm, she can't think past the bullshit that Mermaids has told her since her child first expressed a gender issue at 12 years old. She's had nearly 5 years of worrying that her kid will die if they don't pander to the child's EARNEST desire to get to a gender clinic.

The whole thing makes me angry, truly, I am incandescent. I grew up under section 28, no one was allowed to be gay when I was at school and once I was a student I was surrounded by joyously butch female and effeminate male friends. It was just wonderful - we honestly thought we had sorted this shit out in the 90s.

Where the fuck are the butch women now? Where are the role models for the little baby butch girls? Who does my friend's child look up to and think "yeah, she's cool"? It's appalling, society, and Stonewall has erased gay women far more effectively than Margaret Thatcher managed.

That is why I get so fucking livid when we get some moron saying "have you ever thought about the trans community? Eh? HAVE YOU?" on threads like this.

Yes mate, yes I have. I think about little else. I just disagree with you that the whole world should pretend that this is fine.

Apologies for the grammar and punctuation in that long post.

I'm actually really upset by this whole thing. I'm so sorry about your friend, End, I worry that my DD's lovely friends will die even younger and I feel so IMPOTENT to stop it.

Anyway, thank goodness for the House of Lords. I have cards and emails to send at the weekend.

I am so grateful to them. Genuinely. Their debate was crucial.

Brava Vivarium. Powerful, articulate and right on the nail. 👏👏👏

Do any of you ever pause to think about the effect that your attitudes and posts have on the mental health and safety of trans men and women

This is about women's rights. Women's maternity. It has nothing to do with the health and safety of transpeople. Transwomen do not give birth. This does not have anything to do with them. Transmen are protected under the legislation.

for vivarium and endof

The cheerleaders don’t talk about those bits.

That is an astounding post, vivarium. I'm not a regular on this board but I think I'll be coming in often to quietly read and learn. There is so much that I do not know and so many issues that I can't un-know.

The whole thing makes me angry, truly, I am incandescent. I grew up under section 28, no one was allowed to be gay when I was at school and once I was a student I was surrounded by joyously butch female and effeminate male friends. It was just wonderful - we honestly thought we had sorted this shit out in the 90s.
This.
Folks who were happily non conforming are now given drugs to make them conform to being trans rather than liberated.

My darling niece is on T and has had a double mastectomy. I don't like to think about the long term effects on her health.

Do any of you ever pause to think about the effect that your attitudes and posts have on the mental health and safety of trans men and women?

My mental health is my priority. I have autism and being forced to deny reality causes me immense distress.

Great post vivarium 👏

Do any of you ever pause to think about the effect that your attitudes and posts have on the mental health and safety of trans men and women?

Do any of you ever pause to think about the effect that your attitudes and posts including threats of rape and murder have on the mental health and safety of women?

Can I just say, if anyone wants to extend their 'thank you' list, I've been reading Hansard for Tuesday 22nd February and there were other members of the HOL not mentioned previously, who spoke very well about this issue.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I'm so sorry about your friend, End. I agree, it is a total waste and desperately sad.

We know this - if a female person has an early menopuase she is given HRT because we KNOW that without it she will have a higher risk of coronary heart disease, dementia and osteoporosis.

The NICE guidelines say that if you are under 45 and menopausal you should be given HRT. So, what happens if you are 17 and you make yourself menopausal by taking testosterone? Well, I personally hope that having a gender issue has some magical protective quality, because that appears to be what medicine is banking on.

The female athletes who were doped (without consent) in the 80s died young. Flo Jo doped and won everything and died at 38.

We know what will happen to these kids...and yet, my DD who is 17 has THREE friends who are all now on testosterone, which they cutesily call "T", and they are excited about their double mastectomies, which they cutesily call "top surgery".

I look at them and I get choked up. They are lovely kids, they really are. I've known two of them since they were toddlers. If they said they were lesbians no one would have cared, it would have been an non-issue in their family or their friends or their school or Scouts or judo or drama or any of the groups they belong to. One of the kids mum says to me that she thinks that her child is gay and she is just hoping that the kid comes to their senses soon.

I can't imagine how the mum must juggle the angst of watching what Keira Bell brought to the public eye, whilst also taking my child for the same treatment. That mother is terrified that her kid will self harm, she can't think past the bullshit that Mermaids has told her since her child first expressed a gender issue at 12 years old. She's had nearly 5 years of worrying that her kid will die if they don't pander to the child's EARNEST desire to get to a gender clinic.

The whole thing makes me angry, truly, I am incandescent. I grew up under section 28, no one was allowed to be gay when I was at school and once I was a student I was surrounded by joyously butch female and effeminate male friends. It was just wonderful - we honestly thought we had sorted this shit out in the 90s.

Where the fuck are the butch women now? Where are the role models for the little baby butch girls? Who does my friend's child look up to and think "yeah, she's cool"? It's appalling, society, and Stonewall has erased gay women far more effectively than Margaret Thatcher managed.

That is why I get so fucking livid when we get some moron saying "have you ever thought about the trans community? Eh? HAVE YOU?" on threads like this.

Yes mate, yes I have. I think about little else. I just disagree with you that the whole world should pretend that this is fine.

When you send your emails, would you feel comfortable to include the gist of that post?

It's very powerful.

Good idea, Datun, and thank you PPs.

There is so much work to do, it is not just about one word, it is 51% of the population in all of our diverse glory who are bing told that we are wrong, that we are the problem - and, well, that is not very original, is it? If you believe everything you hear then you'd think that women have been the problem for 4000 years.