Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

I've had a busy day at work so just looking at this now.

I suppose as a lesbian you can be attracted to a gender rather than just sex (for example female genitals) or you could feel attracted to a trans woman post surgery as their body more closely matches your attraction. I don't know! I think it's up to people to decide who they are attracted to which was my original point. Does it matter if a lesina is attracted to a trans woman? It's more they shouldn't have to be or otherwise be transphobic.

I just don't think you can say it's transphobic not to want to have sex with a penis or vagina if you're not thst way inclined. Just like it's not homophobic that I don't want to have sex with a woman.

I think I posted because this argument just seemed really extreme. Hence my question has it gone to far.

I think I was also saying that actually feeling you're the wrong gender must be awful. I wonder if the people here talking about trans women have empathy for that? Or has it gone beyond that as there's not empathy coming the other way?

@agreyersky

Because gender and sexuality is clearly somewhat more complex than chromosones and some people, including some women, are happy to consider that trans women are women

No - same sex attraction is just that. Same sex attraction. You can't POMO your way out of that and still claim that lesbians are of course same sex attraction except when they are not, , but yes they are, except when they are not, but they are.

doesn't mean every lesbian who might fancy the odd trans woman immediately ceases to be same sex attracted. That seems to me to be a ridiculous notion and seems to be a new way mostly straight people have come up with to police lesbian and gay sexualities

It means they are bisexual, they may be primarily attracted to females, but not exclusively. Bisexuality doesn't have to be 50% men and 50% women.

We already have very useful words for the sexualities you are describing.

noun noun: homosexual; plural noun: homosexuals

a person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.

It doesn't say exclusively. It doesn't mean that if you've ever had sex with someone of the opposite sex and enjoyed it you are no longer homosexual. It doesn't mean that if you fancy a trans women, and see her as a women, you are no longer sexually attracted to people of your own sex. Lesbian and gay are identity, no matter how much you claim otherwise. It may be true that some lesbians and gays have never felt the slightest attraction to anyone of the opposite sex, for others it might be a slightly more complex picture. As an example, I knew a gay man, who was in exclusively gay relationships, but was a bt of a swinger and would very occassionally have a sexual experience involving a woman. But he didn't see himself as bisexual, he identified as gay and lived 99.9% of his life that way and I don't really see what business it is of anyone's to deny him that.

I am same sex attracted. I am not a lesbian. I am also not a gay man.

Mm is this some kind of riddle?

a person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.

Doesn't need an explanation.
Words mean things.

@jj1968

No, does it not just mean they are really bisexual? Also who is doing the policing?

You. You, are doing the policing. You, presumably a straight person, is telling a lesbian she can no longer consider herself same sex attracted if she fancied a trans woman once. I don't think you have the right to dictate to others how they should identify their sexuality, it is a deeply personal and often quite complex thing.

No-one is saying a women is not same sex attracted if she also fancies men. They are saying she is not exclusively same sex attracted and therefore not a lesbian.

I don't think you have the right to dictate to others how they should identify their sexuality Anyone can think about their sexuality as they wish. What is objectionable is when they try to appropriate other people's experiences and the words that define them. Come up with a new language to define oneself if you wish. Don't appropriate other people's language.

You are not a character in an Alice in Wonderland book. You cannot demand words mean whatever you say they do.

@334bu

*I am same sex attracted. I am not a lesbian. I am also not a gay man.*

Mm is this some kind of riddle?

Are you claiming that people who are bisexual are not sexually attracted to people of the same sex?

@Endofthelinefinally

We got to the just wanting to pee comment in record time.

It's the new Godwin's Law.

Are you claiming that people who are bisexual are not sexually attracted to people of the same sex?

My apologies but still doesn't explain why transwomen would describe themselves as lesbians when seeking heterosexual relationships.

As an example, I knew a gay man, who was in exclusively gay relationships, but was a bt of a swinger and would very occassionally have a sexual experience involving a woman. But he didn't see himself as bisexual, he identified as gay and lived 99.9% of his life that way and I don't really see what business it is of anyone's to deny him that

There are also men who claim to be straight but have sex with men but they arent' straight. They are bisexual. Sorry, I fundamentally disagree that people can define themselves as they wish and no-one can disagree with this. That may be your position, you may think Rachel Dolezol is black and that no-one can deny her that, but I disagree.

noun: homosexual; plural noun: homosexuals. A person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex
I am glad you are such a fan of dictionary definitions. I take you agree that a woman is an adult human female?

OP, I think most people on this board have a huge sympathy for anyone who is gender dysphoric. Many here have come across this in real life.

But the transgender debate have been pushing against women’s boundaries for a long time.

I don’t think anyone here would tell anyone who to love, who to have sex with or how to dress. But most regulars are focused on women’s rights.

Homophobia has been an issue for a long time and it has been very hard for lesbians to be able to come out.

When they finally are ready to do that and feel that it is getting accepted, they are faced with all these gender discussions and the concept that “lesbians can be interested in women with lady dicks”.

Dating apps do not allow for the preference biological women only.

We see women being trolled online and hear of women being thrown of dating apps for stating biological women only in their profile.

And the women who stay silent are bombarded with profiles of people looking very much like biological males, complete with beards.

I think this seems very homophobic. This has nothing to do with empathy for individual people and everything to do with the erasure/invalidation of a lesbian identity.

OP I hope you are not suggesting that lesbian women should “give trans women a chance as a sex partner” because they may have had some issues?

My apologies but still doesn't explain why transwomen would describe themselves as lesbians when seeking heterosexual relationships.

Because , and wait for it, some trans women consider themselves women.so they may feel it more appropriate to describe themselves as a trans lesbian (which most do), than as a straight man. This is because most straight women are not interested in dating trans women wheras some lesbians will consider it, as will other trans women who may also see themselves as lesbians as well as those who identify as queer, non binary, pan etc.

It's not a secret plot it's just pragmatism. I got messaged by lesbians on okcupid and I was very clear in my profile I was trans and bisexual, I also got messaged by other trans women and non binary people. I didn't get messages from straight women and I got bombarded with creepy messages from straight men, and so eventually I selected that my profile not be seen by straight people or men - which pretty much plunged me into lesbian search results by default. None of these sites are that great for trans people either and as people's identities become more complex they are just trying to keep up with what their user bases want.

Sorry, I just want to hammer home ridiculousness of 'no-one can deny anyone's identity' stance, and the ' words mean whatever I say they do' stance.
So I had a friend who only wanted to date non-smokers, after a long battle to quit herself. She dated a guy. Liked him. On her third date, he started to smoke. ' But you said you were a non-smoker' she said, ' 'I am' he replied, ' I only smoke socially.' Was she cruel to dump him as a smoker? Was she cruel to deny him his identity?

There are men who regard themselves as monogamous as they only shag women who aren't their partner when they are drunk on night outs? If their partners find out, are they wrong to deny these men their monagomous identity by dumping them?

Words have meanings.

OP, you have someone who has set up on this thread, as they do on a lot of threads, to redefine lesbians. This person likes to claim that anyone disagreeing is a heterosexual interloper.

I'm a lesbian, telling you that being sexually oriented towards the same sex as a woman, or a man, does not include members of the opposite sex if they've had a few cosmetic surgical procedures.

I'd be interested to know if you think I'm the extremist for saying that lesbians are exclusively same sex attracted, or if the other person who insists that lesbianism includes some males under specific conditions and refuses to accept that any coercion is happening to women?

Why are women the only ones that need to show empathy op?

I started from a very understanding place, but the erosion of rights, even language is very scary.

I'm all for campaigning for better mental health support all round. I'd happily push for that for individuals with gender dysphoria, but there doesn't seem to be a demand for it. In fact, even suggesting it is considered transphobic.

There are also men who claim to be straight but have sex with men but they arent' straight. They are bisexual. Sorry, I fundamentally disagree that people can define themselves as they wish and no-one can disagree with this.

So this applies to straight people as well? Anyone straight who has ever had the slightest sexual thought about someone of the same sex should immediately renounce their heterosexuality and identify as bisexual?

Going right back to the beginning (sgouldn't be here have work to do!), but this caught my thoughts:

There are extreme positions on all sides.

Is it extreme to use the word 'woman' to refer to 'adult human female'? Or to refer to pregnant women, to talk of menstruation, pregnancy, and menopause as life events for women?

Because all these things are being positioned as "hate" "bigotry" and 'transphobia."

So no, there is only one side pushing extremism. And it isn't women ...

@jj1968

There are also men who claim to be straight but have sex with men but they arent' straight. They are bisexual. Sorry, I fundamentally disagree that people can define themselves as they wish and no-one can disagree with this.

So this applies to straight people as well? Anyone straight who has ever had the slightest sexual thought about someone of the same sex should immediately renounce their heterosexuality and identify as bisexual?

Haha!

Are you really reduced to defining sexual orientation as someone who might once have said ooh, I like your top?

Just so you can rehash the word lesbian to include men?

"This extreme ideology does not want equal rights whilst recognises our differences. It wants to deny those differences exist at all. Happily that agenda has been rolled back today" - Lord Lilley

@jj1968

There are also men who claim to be straight but have sex with men but they arent' straight. They are bisexual. Sorry, I fundamentally disagree that people can define themselves as they wish and no-one can disagree with this.

So this applies to straight people as well? Anyone straight who has ever had the slightest sexual thought about someone of the same sex should immediately renounce their heterosexuality and identify as bisexual?

If you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and freely and enthusiastically have sex with the opposite sex you cannot claim to be homosexual, no. If you have sexually attracted to the same sex, freely and enthusiastically have sex with the same sex you cannot claim to be heterosexual. Any more than a smoker can claim to be a non-smoker or a cheater can claim to be faithful.

"This extreme ideology does not want equal rights whilst recognises our differences. It wants to deny those differences exist at all. Happily that agenda has been rolled back today" - Lord Lilley

Yeah I remember that climate change denying Tory hasbeen.

"I've got a little list / Of benefit offenders who I'll soon be rooting out / And who never would be missed / They never would be missed. / There's those who make up bogus claims / In half a dozen names / And councillors who draw the dole / To run left-wing campaigns / They never would be missed / They never would be missed. / There's young ladies who get pregnant just to jump the housing queue / And dads who won't support the kids / of ladies they have ... kissed / And I haven't even mentioned all those sponging socialists / I've got them on my list / And there's none of them be missed / There's none of them be missed." Lord Lilley

Holding the view that people cant change sex and safeguarding womens rights to safety privacy and dignity is not an extreme view. What rights do trans people not have at present? If it is about access to places that are not for their biological sex, then they need to fight for third spaces or obtain a GRC .

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

OP I hope you are not suggesting that lesbian women should “give trans women a chance as a sex partner” because they may have had some issues?!

Definitely not. I'm not even sure where that would be picked up from?

What I'm saying is I think lesbians aren't not lesbian because they might be attracted to a trans woman. But also it's not up to me who lesbians are attracted to and how they choose to identify their sexuality.

If you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and freely and enthusiastically have sex with the opposite sex you cannot claim to be homosexual, no. If you have sexually attracted to the same sex, freely and enthusiastically have sex with the same sex you cannot claim to be heterosexual.

Says who? And why is this down to what you've done rather than what you've fantasised about. Surely someone who has become sexually aroused at the thought of having sex with someone of the same sex also counts - that's lots of people by the way: www.glamour.com/story/this-just-in-half-of-heterosex

At this point categories become meaningless and stop reflecting people's lives. A gay man, in a gay relationship, who has no interest in a relationship with a woman but may very occassionally have a sexual experience with a woman, or a fantasy about it, is still a gay man who faces homophobia on the grounds of being gay, who has gay political interests such as gay marriage and who would probably feel he was being deceptive and wasting people's time if he called himself bisexual on a dating app when he had no interest in a relationship with a woman.

Lord Hunt "we must not countenance the erasure of women".

twitter.com/IsHomophobia/status/1351961187148304386?s=19 The thread on this Twitter profile shows Transmen attacking gay men who aren't attracted to them.

Jj the speeches have been going on for about four hours. Only one of which was not in favour of correct language.

Lord Winston, one of the foremost and respected reproductive doctors, reminds the House that humans have around 30 trillion cells in our bodies that originates at the moment of embyonic genesis, and they are all either XX or XY

Lesbians don't have a Y chromosome.