Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

I just don't know how both can be supported? But anyway my op was about feeling like there is no room for common ground

Well there should have been a sensible debate about all this. The gender critical feminists have wanted to have this debate. They are the ones calmly gathering the evidence and being willing to sit down and discuss all this. Its the gender ideologists who have cried ' no debate' and tried to shame and sack and stigmatise and encourage collective hatred of the feminists who said, as you have said, there is a conflict of rights here, lets discuss how to handle this.

I am tired of the idea that both sides have been unreasonable. There is only one side that has said ' no debate' , and tried to punish and silence the other side, only one side has been subject to physical attacks and bomb threats, death and rape threats. And that has come entirely from gender ideologists. The death threats may be from more extreme elements, but even 'respectable organisations' have thrown accusations of 'haters' and 'no debate' (which is a shaming tactic) and other social shaming and punishing tactics, removing awards, removing positions, getting people sacked.

Its not the feminists who have behaved badly here, so lets no pretend that it is.

Like I've already said, the current legislation already represents a common ground. It doesn't satisfy everyone but compromise rarely does. It's not GC feminists who have lobbied to change it.

Lesbians aren't sexually attracted to men.

As any number of people in the House of Lords have today said, 'words have meanings'.

@jj1968

But its not simply 'the market' is it? Its promoting an ideology. If it was the market it would allow lesbians to choose biological females only. (just like I as a straight woman can choose only to get contacts from men). It would allow lesbians in their profile to state ' biological women only' without being kicked off the app as 'punishment' for their 'transphobia'

You are trying to present this as people just being allowed to choose in a free market, but there is an ideology in these companies which is clearly telling same sex attracted women that their orientation is 'wrong' and 'phobic' and they are not allowed to publicly state it.

I cannot see how any sane person can regard that as anything other than deeply discriminatory, sexist, homophobic and just plain wrong.

There are lesbians who would consider dating trans women.

So you don't believe that lesbians are same sex attracted?

So they are not expecting to date lesbians GC or not because they accept that lesbians will not be attracted to them as they do share the same sex ?

No of course they aren't joining 'these sites' - which you refuse to identify and which let's face it don't actually exist - because they want to date someone who is not attracted to them. That's not a very good basis for a relationship.

@334bu

*There are lesbians who would consider dating trans women.*

So you don't believe that lesbians are same sex attracted?

Of course I believe lesbians are same sex attracted.

So how can you say some lesbians will date transwomen as transwomen are not the same sex as lesbians?

If the amount of lesbians who do not wish to date trans is larger than the amount of people offended by lesbians not wishing to date trans, then it makes financial sense to permit lesbians to state that they do not wish to date trans.

So, either the company believes that the amount of people offended by lesbians not wishing to date trans is greater than the amount of lesbians not wishing to date trans

OR

They think this smaller group would kick up such an almighty shit storm if they allowed lesbians to say they did not wish to date trans and do not want to have to deal with that

OR

The owners of the dating site themselves believe that lesbians should not be able to say they only want to date other lesbians.

These are the only options. Your list of groups made no sense if the vast majority of those groups don't give a shit who lesbians include and exclude, as you insist is the case.

It would allow lesbians in their profile to state ' biological women only' without being kicked off the app as 'punishment' for their 'transphobia'

But I haven't seen any evidence that people are being kicked off these sites for that. I've never used a lesbian dating site but certainly when I was on okcupid there were plenty of lesbians who might say no trans women thanks, don't have a problem with it's but not my thing and I wasn't in the least offended. I never heard of anyone getting banned for it, so perhaps if people have been it's something to do with the way they phrased things, or some other aspect of their behaviour on the site. If your profile has BIOLOGICAL FEMALES ONLY LESBIANS DON'T DO DICK TRANSWOMEN ARE MEN in big capital letters at the top followed by an epic rant about trans women being permitted to use the site it might attract attention from the mods for example, whereas saying 'not into trans women, sorry' might not.

@334bu

So how can you say some lesbians will date transwomen as transwomen are not the same sex as lesbians?

Because gender and sexuality is clearly somewhat more complex than chromosones and some people, including some women, are happy to consider that trans women are women.

That doesn't mean every lesbian who might fancy the odd trans woman immediately ceases to be same sex attracted. That seems to me to be a ridiculous notion and seems to be a new way mostly straight people have come up with to police lesbian and gay sexualities.

Don't bother bringing your evidence, my dears. It's already been mentioned and was countered with a suggestion Lucy Masoud was lying.

Remember, according to some, the evidence base is always n+1.

But do transwomen really believe that same sex attracted women would be attracted to them despite being of the opposite sex ?

@jj1968
Just because you have not come across this doesn't mean it does not exist. I have come across this happening. And yes, they were politley stating biological women only. It is happening.

That doesn't mean every lesbian who might fancy the odd trans woman immediately ceases to be same sex attracted. That seems to me to be a ridiculous notion and seems to be a new way mostly straight people have come up with to police lesbian and gay sexualities.

No, does it not just mean they are really bisexual? Also who is doing the policing? Simply getting definitions of words correct. Same sex means someone is a member of the sex class and they are exclusively attracted to other members of that sex class. No?

Same sex attracted means....

Some lesbians date men.
Some vegetarians eat meat.
Or do words mean things?

Because gender and sexuality is clearly somewhat more complex than chromosones and some people, including some women, are happy to consider that trans women are women

No - same sex attraction is just that. Same sex attraction. You can't POMO your way out of that and still claim that lesbians are of course same sex attraction except when they are not, , but yes they are, except when they are not, but they are.

doesn't mean every lesbian who might fancy the odd trans woman immediately ceases to be same sex attracted. That seems to me to be a ridiculous notion and seems to be a new way mostly straight people have come up with to police lesbian and gay sexualities

It means they are bisexual, they may be primarily attracted to females, but not exclusively. Bisexuality doesn't have to be 50% men and 50% women.

We already have very useful words for the sexualities you are describing.

Remember, according to some, the evidence base is always n+1.

No the evidence base is evidence, not someone with an agenda saying I think this happened but can't really be sure.

No, does it not just mean they are really bisexual? Also who is doing the policing?

You. You, are doing the policing. You, presumably a straight person, is telling a lesbian she can no longer consider herself same sex attracted if she fancied a trans woman once. I don't think you have the right to dictate to others how they should identify their sexuality, it is a deeply personal and often quite complex thing.

Have we had an answer as to why transwomen will describe themselves as lesbian women seeking to meet lesbian women on dating sites. Why would they do this if they know lesbians are same sex attracted females and therefore will not be attracted to them, as they are the opposite sex? Is it wishful thinking , contempt for lesbians or just a total lack of respect for same sexed attracted women?

Who cares? I don't give a flying fuck what names idiots want to call me - I am not having sex with a man with a vagina! End of

@334bu

Same sex attracted means....

I am same sex attracted. I am not a lesbian. I am also not a gay man.

You, presumably a straight person, is

Again with the assumptions.