Anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere comes under attack

[JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown]

Again. I know Hibo has put out more than one video clarifying that her focus is on women and girls and on stopping FGM, but she did another one last night after being piled on and called a hater for not being 'inclusive' in her language.
mobile.twitter.com/HiboWardere/status/1362100744216866825
I am bloody angry about it this morning.
Hibo Wardere is a personal hero of mine for the amazing work she's done.
Attacking her for not focusing on other issues is the lowest of the low. The misogyny is rank.
(Also, if anyone hasn't got her book 'Cut' on their feminist book shelf, I really do recommend it. It's not an easy read but I found her journey incredibly inspiring).

You are wrong. They center men, but acknowledge that trans women also suffer from prostate cancer.

Pretty exclusionary language there. Not all men have prostates, they should be referring to "people with prostates".

That's the level of language policing is happening with the word women.

When she talks about women, she's explicitly referring to biology, as do most posters here - it's trans exclusionary, the very definition of transphobic.

Because there is no alternative definition of 'woman'. Many posters have tried to come up with one. Politicians have tried. All have failed and now they avoid the question entirely.

@Helleofabore

About the same proportion as in the general population. Unsuprisingly, there is no good data from Somalia.

Excellent. You obviously have statistics though for the UK. Please share. We will wait.

Or maybe, there are significant influences within that demographic that would show your 'about the same proportion' to be a false claim, when considering variables such as age and more specifically, ethnic background and religion. I am very happy to be proven wrong though.

I'm suggesting that the number of trans men who suffer FGM in Somalia is about the same proportion in the population in the UK, not that trans men in the UK are likely to have FGM. In the absence of other data, it's a reasonable assumption.

In the UK the population of gay people (statistically) is higher than in countries where being gay is illegal. It doesn't mean there are fewer gay people, merely that there numbers are not being recorded accurately.

DadJoke, you're starting to get into angels on pinheads territory.

I don't think mentioning trans men, just once, in a tweet, will hamper her ability to fight. Quite the opposite - she'll get a bunch more allies.

Can you not see the significance in what you have just said?

You haven't been able to tell us one trans activist who has supported Hibo while she has been abused. Yet, you are now claiming that if she just bent a little in her language use, she would have a flood of 'allies'.

Allies who require her to adapt HER message to suit them! Not suit the women and girls who she is supporting.

This is rather hypocritical isn't it?

Oh. And even just gently stating 'if she did it just once, she would get a bunch of allies', doesn't remove the fact that this would, in fact, be a 'demand'. Because that 'bunch of allies' would not give their support without her doing this. Rather empty support one would say.

You either support Hibo or you don't. Making your support conditional to her making a minor language change is not support in any true sense.

I read a theory somewhere that transwomen wouldn't want to be included as 'people with prostates' because it's a reminder of their biology.

Whenever I've tweeted about FGM, the first thing that nearly always happens is 'what about the men?'. One time I even went as far as finding an American bloke a link to a US organisation campaigning against male circumcision. Five minutes on Google. If he'd actually been remotely bothered he'd already have known they existed.

I'm suggesting that the number of trans men who suffer FGM in Somalia is about the same proportion in the population in the UK, not that trans men in the UK are likely to have FGM. In the absence of other data, it's a reasonable assumption.

And how many is that?

I do not think it is a reasonable assumption that the % of transmen in the UK population can be at all confidently extrapolated to represent the % of transpeople are victims of FGM in the UK. (ie. that if there was x% of transmen in the UK than x% of victims of FGM would be transmen). Is this what you were saying?

There are significant variables that would render that extrapolation false.

And I would not support that the demographics of the population in Somalia would be a good estimate of the demographics of the UK, or vice versa. Do you have statistics of the trans population in both countries and the sex/age split?

Again, do you think that Hibo has the expertise to know how many that might be in both countries? Do you think that Hibo would adjust her message if it was at all relevant?

Quite the opposite - she'll get a bunch more allies.

Yes. A bunch of allies whose support would be purely conditional. If she centred transmen once, would she be permitted to go back to her previous way of speaking and writing? Would they say, "hey, Hibo isn't transphobic, look at this screencap?"

No. Few can ever place themselves truly beyond criticism. Katy Montgomerie, a young British transwoman and trans activist who is very active on twitter, got denounced as a terf the time she said people couldn't change their genital preference. She felt forced to apologise. Katy is actually definitely trans.

In order to keep the new allies, she would have to phrase each and every tweet and tiktok video thereafter with them in mind. Otherwise, pileons, or they would threaten to withhold the donations. Which would be dreadful if this happened at a time when she'd come to rely on them.

So gradually, Hibo would feel pressured to centre her Western donors in her tweets and talks, rather than the people performing FGM and the women and girls who are subjected to it, regardless of their gender identity.

Inevitably, her tweets would lose their force and power as she got tangled up in making disclaimers. Hence they'd become inaccessible to the target group, who speak English as an additional language.

reprehensibleme

Cross post.

I've typed a few replies to this then deleted them because I will get banned.

But policing the language used by a women campaigning against FGM is fucking abhorrent.

@Helleofabore

Do you think that Hibo would adjust her message if it was at all relevant?

Based on a snarky tweet she made about "chestfeeding" I'd guess not.

Oh. And even just gently stating 'if she did it just once, she would get a bunch of allies', doesn't remove the fact that this would, in fact, be a 'demand'. Because that 'bunch of allies' would not give their support without her doing this. Rather empty support one would say.

You said that tweeting it would hamper support for her. I don't agree. It's not a "demand" - if someone reaches out to a marginalised group, they are more likely to get support from that group.

You either support Hibo or you don't. Making your support conditional to her making a minor language change is not support in any true sense.

People are not that simple. You can support someone's campaign while disagreeing with their views on other matters. I support charities which deal with FGM, and there are a number. I'll make my decisions based on a wide range of criteria.

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

I read a theory somewhere that transwomen wouldn't want to be included as 'people with prostates' because it's a reminder of their biology.

Whenever I've tweeted about FGM, the first thing that nearly always happens is 'what about the men?'. One time I even went as far as finding an American bloke a link to a US organisation campaigning against male circumcision. Five minutes on Google. If he'd actually been remotely bothered he'd already have known they existed.

I'm not saying it's the correct way as I certainly do not like "people with a cervix".

Would the prefix trans not be a reminder?
Unfortunately biology is a reality.

It's all about the face you aren't centering the penis not that they actually care about genital mutilation of men.

@PronounssheRa

I've typed a few replies to this then deleted them because I will get banned.

But policing the language used by a women campaigning against FGM is fucking abhorrent.

Me too.

Salami slicing over language while young girls are mutilated. I thought I’d seen it all and I couldn’t be shocked any more but I was wrong.

Anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere comes under attack

and it continues here unabated.

You genuinely don’t have the first idea how you come across, do you, dadjoke?

You said that tweeting it would hamper support for her. I don't agree.

Ahem. That was me.

I didn't mean it would hamper support. I meant it would hamper her activism.

We've had a lot of discussion about this through out the thread (have you read it?).

TL;DR language that literate English native-speakers from the West (with generally 11 years compulsory school and voluntary education beyond that) find easy to comprehend is not necessarily comprehensible to someone from a very different culture who is speaking English as a 2nd/3rd language.

People are not that simple. You can support someone's campaign while disagreeing with their views on other matters. I support charities which deal with FGM, and there are a number. I'll make my decisions based on a wide range of criteria.

Actually. This is about FGM. It actually IS that simple.

Just like underage marriage.

If you are making your decisions based on your beliefs around the language used to describe victims past and present of FGM rather than on their effectiveness in preventing these practices, via the means that are not only ethical but effective, that is for you to reconcile.

And so Hibo now will not use transmen as an additive in her messages about FGM, AND has pointed out how offensive chest feeding is when it is substituted for breastfeeding.

Her list of alleged phobia is growing it seems.

I am sure that Hibo also pointed out that people living in this country who have English as a second or even third language, would find chestfeeding, not only confusing but would feel it did not apply to them. I am sure that as a very sleep deprived person with English as my only language, I would skim over any communication that was titled for chestfeeding (ie. not breastfeeding and chestfeeding) as not being at all relevant for me.

So, dadjoke have you ever had trouble breast feeding? Can you empathise with that at all? Do you know how difficult it is for some people, and incredibly painful?

I can assure you, the priority at that point is for relevant information communicated in very clear language.

Trans men also have vaginas. As you would say - that's biology. So it's excluding a bunch of people you would refer to as women

Can you even hear yourself?

People are fretting because they've been 'excluded' from a campaign against female genital mutilation. Female genital mutilation

First world problems of the highest order. How can anyone even survive if their whole sense of well being is that fragile?

Once again, why does any group of people feel they need a 'reach out' before they will support a campaign against the genital mutilation of little girls?

@Sophoclesthefox

You genuinely don’t have the first idea how you come across, do you, dadjoke?

However, it is quite clear to those reading along I am sure. And across numerous threads now.

It's bizzare how you demand that trans men are women, but then want to exclude them from services related to their biological needs

Transmen are not excluded from services which relate to their female biological needs.

I can only assume you can't possibly have any idea how badly you're coming across right now @DadJoke. I hope the dad in your name really is a joke\

If it isn't a joke, one can only assume that this is because they realise the profundity that supporting trans identities implies; and with the knowledge that quite often there can be no going back due to the effects of hormones, surgery and so on. It must be difficult to know, as an adult/parent, you have enabled this.

Abigail Shrier suggests it is the parents and the professionals who will be last to desist - for this reason.

The same people scolding Hibo for not speaking the language of American queer theory this week will be scolding us for being “white feminists” next week. And so it goes. As long as we all remember that no matter what it is, we’re doing it wrong.

You are wrong. They center men, but acknowledge that trans women also suffer from prostate cancer

And by doing so acknowledge that however someone identifies it does not change their sex.

You said that tweeting it would hamper support for her. I don't agree. It's not a "demand" - if someone reaches out to a marginalised group, they are more likely to get support from that group.

I believe I posted Hibo is a victim campaigning for women and children. She is directly in touch with these victims, she knows their stories. I would put more faith in Hibo to get the language of her message right than a person on the internet. Both here in the UK and in Somalia.

If this needs clarification, I am talking about getting her message to those who actually need to hear it.

You are the ONLY person on this entire thread who is talking about limiting your support to Hibo's efforts to fulfil conditions to suit your own agenda and inferring that others would do the same. In fact, you pointedly stated:

I don't think mentioning trans men, just once, in a tweet, will hamper her ability to fight. Quite the opposite - she'll get a bunch more allies.

Thereby stating that if she changed the language she uses in her messages to suit a 'marginalised group', 'just once', people who quite frankly should be supporting an even MORE marginalised group than themselves rather than playing oppression olympics (if what you state is, in fact, true) would come on board as 'allies'.

So, they would then be conditional supporters who would more than likely demand other concessions to retain their support.

Either way, you are not painting a very positive picture. Rather, you are showing the light directly on the demands of a group of activists and how they seek to manipulate others.