Feeling really conflicted

[Tittie]

I've been lurking on the GC threads for quite some time, but don't feel articulate enough to contribute, compared to some of the brilliant posters here!

I peaked about 2 years ago. I remember confidently describing Mumsnet as transphobic to my friend not long before that I can't even remember what it was that changed my mind.

Anyway, there seems to be more and more coverage of trans/sex/gender issues in the media at the moment. It's making me incredibly uncomfortable that I find myself agreeing with newspapers, celebrities and politicians that I would ordinarily distance myself from (eg the Daily Mail). I am 100% gender critical, but I have this nagging doubt about who I am both agreeing and disagreeing with. Is anyone else feeling conflicted in this way?

If transwomen are unsafe among male people , then women are even less safe when male people are allowed into women's safe places.

I'm still waiting for that cascade of tras to come in and defend Hibo Wardere, and reassure some "transinclusive feminists" that they don't think Hibo needs to virtue-signal about transwomen.

Perhaps jj could put the bat signal out?

@Deliriumoftheendless

Oh! So when TRAs say men’s toilets are unsafe for transwomen they actually mean prisons.

Got it.

And transwomen have never used men's toilets so the claim that they would be in danger if they did is a complete fabrication.

Glad we've got that cleared up.

At least in the UK some areas of the mass media are willing to tackle this conflict of rights, unlike Canada, where there appears to be total " radio" silence

@PotholeParadies

I'm still waiting for that cascade of tras to come in and defend Hibo Wardere, and reassure some "transinclusive feminists" that they don't think Hibo needs to virtue-signal about transwomen.

Perhaps jj could put the bat signal out?

I've just looked through the thread and have no idea who said what and to whom so I'm not going to wade into it. Searching on twitter all I can see is gender critical people and some dickhead men going on about male circumcision.

I'm not gong to name them and invite further harassment by posting their names on here, but it has happened to pretty much every high profile trans or trans supportive person I follow on twitter in one way or another. And it's been done by people who call themselves gender critical in most cases.

Oh aye, is that right?

But you conveniently don't have any receipts?

This is board about women’s rights. I am fed up that we keep having to talk about the (imaginary) rights of other groups to take these rights away and centre them. However as the crimes of tw in prisons seem to match those of the other groups in said prisons for men, seem like an appropriate placement for them men need to change their violent and abusive behaviour. Not women’s problem to solve.

And it's been done by people who call themselves gender critical in most cases.

Self-identifying as gender critical, I presume. Are these people male or female?

And when you say 'gender critical', what do you mean?

Just to be clear, there's a link to the Hibo Wardere thread that I posted further up the thread, so it's quite easy to find links to tweets etc.

jj

Perhaps you could all sign and send a gracious group thank-you card , saying 'thanks for the thought, but really you didn't need to'?

twitter.com/planet_eltern/status/1362713672737583112?s=19

Wow I wasn't expecting so many responses! This has given me lots to think about.

I didn't phrase my op well and it probably made my thinking sound incredibly simplistic. I think I'm just really struggling because I know that I am an intelligent person with a good understanding of science. I KNOW that sex is binary - I learned this back in school and can’t unlearn it. I have always disliked gender stereotypes and been pro-women. But like pps have said, I end up going down these internet rabbit holes, then I see posts to make me doubt myself momentarily. There was one on Twitter - it might have been Owen Jones? - saying that GC parents now, are like the homophobic parents a few decades ago; and that years down the line, our kids will hate us for being so intolerant and messing them up. I know this isn't true, deep down, but it makes me pause and worry.

I think @Sophoclesthefox has put it well: ‘Maybe you’re like I am and are struggling with feeling like you’re not being kind and supportive’ - I like to think that yes I am kind, and as a woman I’ve been socialised to be accommodating. So I suppose this causes internal conflict when I consider how some of the TRA lobbying is incompatible with women’s rights.

I have a young son and daughter, and I'm so worried for them and their futures. I want to get it right for them too.

jj here's another one.

twitter.com/TweeterMegz/status/1361306053024088066?s=19

[quote PotholeParadies]jj

Perhaps you could all sign and send a gracious group thank-you card , saying 'thanks for the thought, but really you didn't need to'?

twitter.com/planet_eltern/status/1362713672737583112?s=19[/quote]
So I'm asking the women on the thread to read that Tweet and then ask yourself the question I suggested earlier, please. Do you seriously feel conflicted about wholeheartedly supporting Hibo and not needing to mention a group which have nothing to do with FGM at all? Or that women should be renamed when discussing FGM because it upsets that particular group to feel excluded? Why? Why would you let the bluster and obfuscation of these people make you feel bad for supporting women?

Please, this is important. You are being lied to and coerced by people who do not think you, me or Hibo and others like her matter. You don't have to put up with it.

@Floisme

For me that exchange between Zoe Williams and Janice Turner summed up everything that's wrong with 'I read / write for the Guardian so I must be in the right' thinking. From what I could see, Williams initiated the discussion in the first place, and when she couldn't defend her points she resorted to being rude to Janice and claiming she was tired. Pitiful.

And what were her points? They seemed to be that the priority of a women's health campaign SHOULDN'T be clear, effective communication in order to save lives and prevent suffering. Incredible, and actually something close to evil.

@AnyOldPrion

I sometimes feel conflicted too. Not because of who agrees with me, but I sometimes wonder whether I am wrong and at some point society will reach a stable position where men are accepted as women and despite the negative effects on some women, it will be accepted as the new societal norm, and those who objected will be seen as having been over the top.

I was listening to Germaine Greer the other day and though she continues to believe men are not women, she said she’s not really interested as it isn’t that important. I wondered whether she meant that there were other more pressing feminist problems (I think that’s what she was implying) or whether she thought the fad would pass, it would more or less sort itself out, and we’d settle into a new pattern like the one I mentioned above.

But deep inside, I continue to think there is something very wrong. I don’t think it can work for men to simply be able to choose whether they should have women’s rights. I think, if the fad does continue, we need to be looking at alternative separate spaces, and I argue for those wherever possible.

I am also very worried about the effect on children. I genuinely don’t think any child has the mental capacity to understand the consequences of puberty blockers. Nor do I believe an 18 year old can understand the consequences of unnecessary mastectomy, or taking drugs that will permanently affect whether they can ever use female spaces without making the women in those spaces uncomfortable. Given their female socialisation, I suspect that will weigh more heavily on them than the men who use our spaces without a second thought.

So painful though it is that we have to pay lawyers to defend our current legal situation and our right to speak out, I think we have to persevere with the court cases and judicial reviews. Every time the judges agree with us, I am reassured that we are ultimately right and something is already far wrong. I hope that with all the appeals, that things will continue to go in what I see as the right direction.

So that’s where I’m at. It worries me how many people I previously would have respected believe I’m a bigot, but I don’t believe I am. I can justify my position and given I’ve always considered myself a reasonable person who can see nuance, I don’t think it’s me that’s suddenly changed. I think the situation has changed slowly, but that it has been done under the radar, hence the feeling that something has suddenly shifted a long way and everything feels out of place.

That makes me uncomfortable, but when I see the reach that Stonewall has, that’s another little jerk that tells me that something is wrong. Children as young as twelve having mastectomies. The police recording male crimes as female. Those things have to be wrong. Women in court having to pretend that their male assailants are women can’t be right. Men in women’s prisons: definitively wrong.

When I look at those things, I can tell it isn’t just me having this out of proportion. And if those things are wrong, then the rest is likely wrong too. We’re not imagining this and we’re not wrong to object and that is the conclusion I keep reaching any time I feel that doubt.

This was brilliantly put, thank you.

I look back at my teenage/early 20s self, and cringe at my way of looking at the world back then. I thought I was so right on! I was so certain I knew it all.

I have this worry that I will look back at the 2021 me in a few decades and think, 'wtf?' in a similar sort of way.

An acceptance that there is indeed a conflict of rights in this debate would go a long way. There is nothing transphobic about discussing matters which only concern women and girls like FGM. There is nothing transphobic about women not wanting to allow males into their safe spaces, especially when all evidence shows that all males no matter their gender identity present an equal danger to women. There is nothing transphobic about having the right to name ourselves and have our own words. In the past enslaved people's were denied their own names and in the 21st century it would seem women are now the " nameless" .

Yes, I'm angry, because it's better to channel it. But the erasure and lack of consideration of women does really distress me, if I let myself really think about it.

There was one on Twitter - it might have been Owen Jones? - saying that GC parents now, are like the homophobic parents a few decades ago; and that years down the line, our kids will hate us for being so intolerant and messing them up. I know this isn't true, deep down, but it makes me pause and worry.

Owen Jones is a hypocrite. He is happy to chant that TWAW and TMAM, but when asked if (as a gay man) he would consider a sexual relationship with a transman, he accused the person who asked of homophobia. He doesn't really believe that TMAM, so according to gender ideology he is transphobic.

I tried to read the 50:50 thread yesterday (late to the party as usual, I find it hard keeping up on here with little children to look after), but I did find it a struggle in parts, with all the deleted comments.

Not feeling the need to preface every statement in support of women with a disavowal of 'transphobia' is a good move, tbh. I don't need to add caveats to be allowed to defend women and girls. If a transactivist thinks I do, they have underlined that they view the rights of women and girls as subordinate to their demands. It deserves no credence whatsoever. If someone thinks discussing FGM without using special sub class terms for women is transphobic, then they've just owned up to the fact that trans demands are 100% anti woman, and I give no shits at all about how sad it makes them when I in response.

And what were her points? They seemed to be that the priority of a women's health campaign SHOULDN'T be clear, effective communication in order to save lives and prevent suffering. Incredible, and actually something close to evil.

YY. Another classy Zoe Williams moment.

OP you're agreeing with Julie Bindel and Allison Bailey. That's pretty awesome company to start with.

Meanwhile it's really depressing watching the writing of clever women like Zoe Williams turning to mush as they refuse to use their brains.

Interesting that JJ conceded that there is no data that transwomen are unsafe in mens facilities and as we know feminine men, gay men, small men and some transwomen all use the mens, basic risk assessment says transwomen have a good chance to be safe in the mens.
As we also know there is no physical difference between men and transwomen and letting men into womens facilities is high risk to women, risk assessment says it is better to keep womens facilities single sex.

But to help transwomen, small men, feminine men, vulnerable men I am happy to support safer facilities for all males.

Not feeling the need to preface every statement in support of women with a disavowal of 'transphobia' is a good move, tbh. I don't need to add caveats to be allowed to defend women and girls. If a transactivist thinks I do, they have underlined that they view the rights of women and girls as subordinate to their demands. It deserves no credence whatsoever. If someone thinks discussing FGM without using special sub class terms for women is transphobic, then they've just owned up to the fact that trans demands are 100% anti woman, and I give no shits at all about how sad it makes them when I in response.

This, 100%.

just catching up

I have a different sort of perspective to some in that I am personally not bothered by sharing spaces with trans women, or my daughter doing so, but I also understand why other women, especially those who have experience abuse, do not feel comfortable doing so and should be able to express that without being called TERFS, transphobes or told they want transwomen to die etc.

that's lovely Echobelly and I totally understand that there are many women that genuinely don't mind sharing but how do you teach your daughter how to tell the predators from the non-predators in a small enclose space where she is partially undressed?