Feeling really conflicted

[Tittie]

I've been lurking on the GC threads for quite some time, but don't feel articulate enough to contribute, compared to some of the brilliant posters here!

I peaked about 2 years ago. I remember confidently describing Mumsnet as transphobic to my friend not long before that I can't even remember what it was that changed my mind.

Anyway, there seems to be more and more coverage of trans/sex/gender issues in the media at the moment. It's making me incredibly uncomfortable that I find myself agreeing with newspapers, celebrities and politicians that I would ordinarily distance myself from (eg the Daily Mail). I am 100% gender critical, but I have this nagging doubt about who I am both agreeing and disagreeing with. Is anyone else feeling conflicted in this way?

The tragic case of David Reimer does make me doubt the argument that gender is purely a social construct. David Reimer was brought up as female, but he somehow knew he was male.

I'm in another country with different politics and I too struggle with what you are going through, OP. I've always been on the forefront of political ideas and progressive policy. Yet, in a blink of an eye, most of my left learning groups took on this regressive, white, male-dominated ideology. I can't wrap my head around it except to say that tribalism is very real.

@Cattenberg

The tragic case of David Reimer does make me doubt the argument that gender is purely a social construct. David Reimer was brought up as female, but he somehow knew he was male.

That’s really irrelevant here, as it involved a botched circumcision, a terrible decision in the apparent absence of any ethics, and horrific abuse. It doesn’t prove anything apart from that cutting a boys penis off doesn’t magically make him a girl, and that doctors occasionally do breathtakingly horrible things.

Because he was male. The only way to be 'brought up female' is to have a female body and grow up in a culture that has contempt for that. Bullshit abusive experiments on boys prove nothing at all about the mechanics of gender indoctrination. They just show that quacks will do some really disgusting things to kids to prove outlandish theories.

There was one on Twitter - it might have been Owen Jones? - saying that GC parents now, are like the homophobic parents a few decades ago; and that years down the line, our kids will hate us for being so intolerant and messing them up. I know this isn't true, deep down, but it makes me pause and worry.

Well, in this futuristic utopia where Owen Jones is forever immortalised on film as 'a dedicated ally' in an It's A Sin style drama, we would also have males competing in female sports, male rapists in female spaces, children routinely being given off label drugs before puberty and then going into cross sex horomones/surgery/infertility/sexual dysfunction because they don't fit into societies expectation of their sex, and women being completely unable to access a single sex space or provision ever.

So... I think I'll take my chances to be honest.

@alexk3

If you are agreeing with people you think are bad people usually, then maybe it’s your perspective on trans people that needs to change

This is really interesting because it plays into the narrative of goodies and baddies. Not sure if it’s been mentioned but it links into the Adam Curtis documentaries - currently on iPlayer, but also the previous one, hypernormalisation.

He believes that we are all buying into this black and white, good v evil narrative, hence the nazi accusations. He also links into the move towards individualism which is exactly where identity politics fits, putting everyone in boxes and competing to be the most oppressed. The trans ideology, not trans individuals necessarily, massively buys into identity politics, the wants of individuals (inc consumerism) and good v bad. Julia Grant was featured as an example of the move from established authority (the Dr who was an utter arsehole to her), toward individuals breaking free and doing what they want. Her story is heartbreaking (child sexual abuse and failed surgery).

I also feel conflicted as I support people in expressing themselves as they want, and transitioning if needed. I don’t object to drag, unlike many here, as long as they are respectful about women. But I’ve long believed men and women have virtually no difference in the brain, aside hormonal influences and socialisation. Men being stronger just used their physical advantage to subjugate women to serve men’s needs.

It’s a fascinating topic but terrifying when your eyes are opened to the darker elements. These elements are well hidden so most people don’t have a clue and anyone trying to inform others is shut down.

Sadly this is going to end up in a bad place for everyone. The genuine and safe trans women will lose out most of all.

@jj1968

We know that the Denton's strategy document was used very effectively in the Republic of Ireland to put Self-id in law with the minimum number of people being aware.

The Dentons report was published four years after self ID was introduced in Ireland.

ok, the approach that was formalised in the Denton's document for future attempted use in the UK was used successfully in ROI. The women in the UK have rumbled the strategy though - Maria Millar/Theresa May were part of the initial GRA reform push which was using the quietly, softly approach and keeping it low level in the press.

ROI deliberately used legislation on same sex marriage that was largely popular to slide self-id in under the radar. As I understand certain key aspects were added at the second reading with even less scrutiny.

Amost zero knowledge and understanding from the public on that particular part of the legislation passed due to almost zero coverage from the press who are to this day suppressing key news stories about issues that are affecting women in Ireland badly.

We're not lying about this. We're not asking for it, or being over sensitive, or making a fuss out of nothing. It happens to us too.

I am not saying you are lying, JJ. I am saying transwomen are just as safe as other vulnerable men in the mens facilities. No more, no less. Should all these vulnerable men be let into the womens? What is the criteria in your opinion? Other than 'because I say I am a transwoman, trust me?'

@Cattenberg

The tragic case of David Reimer does make me doubt the argument that gender is purely a social construct. David Reimer was brought up as female, but he somehow knew he was male.

David Reimers doctor was sexually abusing him and making him do all sorts of fucked up shit with his brother. He also had to take all sorts of drugs to make him develop 'girl features'.

The case is really not a good example of anything really, apart from how not to conduct 'gender experiments'.

They just show that quacks will do some really disgusting things to kids to prove outlandish theories.

What Money did was vile but it actually disproved his theory. He believed that gender was entirely socially constructed and as such if Reimer was raised as a girl he would be happy that way - and he claimed that was the case - the experiment was hailed as a great success and directly contributed to the practice of unnecessary and unconsensual surgeries carried out on intersex kids. Even after Reimer began living as a boy Money refused to publish anything revealing his experiment had in fact failed.

Should all these vulnerable men be let into the womens? What is the criteria in your opinion? Other than 'because I say I am a transwoman, trust me?'

Yes, do we let all males who might be more at risk into the ladies?

Women’s energy bring sucked into ever more pointless whataboutery ‘discussions’ as if there is some magic response that will unlock empathy and understanding when there isn’t and never will be.

It's tiring and depressing to see this play out every time. They don't care about women.

@sanluca

We're not lying about this. We're not asking for it, or being over sensitive, or making a fuss out of nothing. It happens to us too.

I am not saying you are lying, JJ. I am saying transwomen are just as safe as other vulnerable men in the mens facilities. No more, no less. Should all these vulnerable men be let into the womens? What is the criteria in your opinion? Other than 'because I say I am a transwoman, trust me?'

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I once suggested that Stonewall et al could have instituted a transgender-friendly kitemark, which would be issued to buildings that provided additional, separate enclosed facilities. Buildings that had received this certification would be listed and mapped, in the same way I can use the NHS site to find out if there are any dentists near me taking on NHS patients (and whether they're accessible to wheelchair-users).

What a pity Stonewall didn't go down that route. What a waste of the last ten years, eh?

@BarbaraofKent

Should all these vulnerable men be let into the womens? What is the criteria in your opinion? Other than 'because I say I am a transwoman, trust me?'

Yes, do we let all males who might be more at risk into the ladies?

But don't forget that as jj has said, this is only a hypothetical risk because no data exists.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Women’s energy bring sucked into ever more pointless whataboutery ‘discussions’ as if there is some magic response that will unlock empathy and understanding when there isn’t and never will be.

It's tiring and depressing to see this play out every time. They don't care about women.

It really is. I shall reiterate that my priority and focus is women and girls. I have no interest in discussing on a feminist section of a forum the issues faced by other groups. No doubt those issues exist and others may choose the expend time and energy on them. I have donated to animal welfare charities, but I don't feel the need to bring up the cruel things people do to cats and dogs when the topic is the rights of women and girls.

And I don't play pigeon chess, however much the pigeon might be fucking desperate for me to.

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

Still not an excuse to advocate to put women at further risk of male violence by allowing males into female safe spaces.. The only thing that is certain is that all males, no matter their gender identity, present an equal risk to women

And I don't play pigeon chess, however much the pigeon might be fucking desperate for me to.

Quite right Bunting. I keep saying I'm not going to and then I get sucked in. How to look after vulnerable men shouldn't be the main focus on a forum for feminists.

@OldCrone

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

@OldCrone

And I don't play pigeon chess, however much the pigeon might be fucking desperate for me to.

Quite right Bunting. I keep saying I'm not going to and then I get sucked in. How to look after vulnerable men shouldn't be the main focus on a forum for feminists.

It's easily done. I've done it many times myself. I'm in dogged mood tonight, and in need of distraction, so I've been a little more vocal than of late. I hope some of it is helpful to you brilliant women. You can support women and girls, and not need to justify or qualify that to anyone.

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

why are you focusing on sexual violence? The argument we are being given is that tw feel unsafe in the men's facilities because of potential violence from general men. The question is, are they at any greater risk of violence than any other vulnerable male group like teen boys or small gay men?

The evidence of any excessive rates of violence seems to be lacking significantly and I am not buying the assertion that tw have always used the ladies - they haven't in the way we see now and if some of the 5000 have, they were clocked and generally a woman was made to feel uncomfortable or scared in her facilities.

The new cohort of Alex Drummonds, Eddie Izzard's and Danielle Muscato's may barge their way into the ladies but they will be very noticed and it will be very unpleasant for the women who have to endure it.

The transwoman I worked with made very sure not to impinge on our privacy and we appreciated that. None of us ever bumped into our transwoman colleague in the women's toilets. Now we are being told that many transwomen don't even 'transition their appearance' so appear fully male, beard and all (Danielle Muscato, Alex D. etc).

*Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html"

So what are men doing about it?

i know, i know... its just the smears, the lies, the arrogance, the entitlement, the narcissism- but yeah once you've heard it once, you've heard it all.

The only thing that is certain is that all males, no matter their gender identity, present an equal risk to women

This is certain is it? All those born male are of equal risk? Trans women assigned male at birth who only fancy women? Trans women without a penis? Gay males? 2 year old males? Males in a coma? Or is it true that some subsets of males are less of a risk and some are no risk at all? This is why it's a logical fallacy to assume something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole, even if it's the largest part. It is known as the fallacy of composition.