Feeling really conflicted

[Tittie]

I've been lurking on the GC threads for quite some time, but don't feel articulate enough to contribute, compared to some of the brilliant posters here!

I peaked about 2 years ago. I remember confidently describing Mumsnet as transphobic to my friend not long before that I can't even remember what it was that changed my mind.

Anyway, there seems to be more and more coverage of trans/sex/gender issues in the media at the moment. It's making me incredibly uncomfortable that I find myself agreeing with newspapers, celebrities and politicians that I would ordinarily distance myself from (eg the Daily Mail). I am 100% gender critical, but I have this nagging doubt about who I am both agreeing and disagreeing with. Is anyone else feeling conflicted in this way?

jj1968 Fri 19-Feb-21 22:50:28
OldCrone

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

jj this was published in 2014 and seems to be relying heavily on data gathered in 2009 in America. We have discussed this before - things are very different here than America 11 years ago. Please provide some more recent evidence.

is is certain is it? All those born male are of equal risk?

those who dont understand or respect womens boundaries, those who repeatedly inveigle into womens discussions, spaces and sports, those who send rape or death threats to women who resist them quite probably pose a bigger threat- but im happy to say that as a general rule, no men in our single sex spaces even men in comas

**This is certain is it? All those born male are of equal risk? Trans women assigned male at birth who only fancy women? Trans women without a penis? Gay males? 2 year old males? Males in a coma? Or is it true that some subsets of males are less of a risk and some are no risk at all? This is why it's a logical fallacy to assume something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole, even if it's the largest part. It is known as the fallacy of composition.
**
Females safe spaces came about because of male violence towards women. Crime statistics etc indicate that there is no difference in patterns of criminality between males who identify as women and other males. Ergo no males in female spaces in order to keep women safe.

It is sometimes thought that it is unfair of women to treat some men as potential rapists, because NAMALT. One may point to any particular man as definitely not-a-rapist-because... and engage in any amount of distraction and guilt-tripping.

This matter was dealt with, for once and for all, in 2009.

deadwildroses.com/2011/09/21/schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-a-guide-for-the-men/

@gardenbird48

jj1968 Fri 19-Feb-21 22:50:28 OldCrone

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

jj this was published in 2014 and seems to be relying heavily on data gathered in 2009 in America. We have discussed this before - things are very different here than America 11 years ago. Please provide some more recent evidence.

Please provide some more recent evidence.

No. Look for yourself, there is plenty of research out there. If your response to trans people telling you we are at risk of sexual violence from men and we know this not just because of data gathered but our own experiences is to continually demand more and better evidence then you seem little different to me than the men who try to dismiss sexual violence using the same tactics.

I'm not going to sit here and give you intimate details of assaults that I, and those I have known have suffered and I'm not going to post the same links I have posted many times before and you have ignored. If you seek to diminish the sexual violence trans women face because it's politically convenient to do so that is your perogative, but it's really not a good look.

Crime statistics etc indicate that there is no difference in patterns of criminality between males who identify as women and other males.

There are no crime statistics which show this and you know it. It's a lie.

How would you know someone in a coma was male? Do you get a psychic to ask their gender identity? Does a sparkly unicorn sniff them and stamp once for boy and twice for girl?

I'm not going to sit here and give you intimate details of assaults that I, and those I have known have suffered and I'm not going to post the same links I have posted many times before and you have ignored. If you seek to diminish the sexual violence trans women face because it's politically convenient to do so that is your perogative, but it's really not a good look.

So you will understand the trauma caused to female rape victims told by the Youth Hostelling Association , that to ensure that no males would be in the " female" accommodation, they would have to give details of their experience of sexual violence to untrained hostel staff.

Sorry to go on about this, but it’s a point I’m genuinely stuck on. The thing I can’t work out is how David Reimer knew he was male. He had male chromosomes and presumably, male hormones in the uterus. But did this give him a “male brain”? Some say there is no such thing, but others say that there is.

Crime statistics etc indicate that there is no difference in patterns of criminality between males who identify as women and other males.
There are no crime statistics which show this and you know it. It's a lie.

Nope. It's true.

Back to the original post. Should we be surprised that the left wing media is perhaps institutionally sexist? It has always been about the working man and the only time women appear to be important is when they are sticking up for men, like the miners' wives did during the strikes in the 80s.

"There are no crime statistics which show this and you know it. It's a lie."

Sorry but MOJ would beg to differ. In fact gender diverse males might even be a bit more dangerous.

No. Look for yourself, there is plenty of research out there. If your response to trans people telling you we are at risk of sexual violence from men and we know this not just because of data gathered but our own experiences is to continually demand more and better evidence then you seem little different to me than the men who try to dismiss sexual violence using the same tactics.

I have looked. And found mostly stories about tw attacking people, not vice versa. That is why I am asking you to show some evidence. I don’t know which links you refer to posting many times previously- apart from maybe one other very old American survey that bears no resemblance to uk today. I haven’t dismissed anything - I am asking for you to back up your point.

And evidence that trans people are at any more risk of violence than any other vulnerable male group.

Sorry not read the full thread, but I know where you’re coming from OP. I was peaked around 2
years ago I think. Pips Bunce was the first person to make me go ‘hang on, this is a bit weird’, but I had seen Jessica Yaniv, Danielle Muscato, and other TRA’s leading up to my peak point that were making me question stuff. Then it escalated quite quickly with Alex Drummond, Rachel McKinnon (when she called Martina Navratilova a bigot🤦‍♀️),and the more I looked into it, the more ridiculous it seemed.
The thing is though, I am really not comfortable with my views.

I’m sure it’s because I’m a woman, and I’m supposed to be kind. But I am more than willing to have my mind changed if only someone (looks at @jj1968 hopefully?) could change my mind and explain to me in simple terms what puts someone like Alex Drummond, Pips Bunce on a Wednesday, or Paris Lees in the same biological category as me, but excludes my husband.

I genuinely don’t get it and have really tried to ‘educate myself’. I have boiled it down to two possibilities, it’s either that we all have a ‘lady brain’ which is clearly not the case, or it’s biological in which case it’s down to chromosomes and genitals, and actually the above mentioned people would be in the same group as my husband. Which clearly makes more sense but why can’t people see that? And why is it so offensive to them? It’s baffling!

@334bu

Back to the original post. Should we be surprised that the left wing media is perhaps institutionally sexist? It has always been about the working man and the only time women appear to be important is when they are sticking up for men, like the miners' wives did during the strikes in the 80s.

No, it's entirely predictable. Although I believe the Morning Star has bucked the trend - I don't know how consistently, I've only seen a few things linked to here but they were pro-women.

Given the rate of male violence towards women, I make no apologies for asserting that no males should be in female safe spaces.

As for male on male violence, I feel that this is something that they have to sort out for themselves. If this results in campaigns for a safe third place for vulnerable members of the male sex, I would support this wholeheartedly and help in any way I can. However, it is not up to women to sort this out nor have we any obligation to make ourselves less safe to allow the male sex to shirk their own responsibility for this problem.

Perhaps one day the left will recognise that women matter too and those of us politically adrift at the moment can come back home.

If this results in campaigns for a safe third place for vulnerable members of the male sex, I would support this wholeheartedly and help in any way I can.

There's a petition some may be interested in supporting on the petitions board, look for 'third spaces'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

I think we all start with the same brain, but socialisation can make changes to it. Debra Tannen writes a lot about it. I used to enjoy debunking that with my students. And I suspect those of us with m and f dc can also attest to that. I also suspect that if we were to describe our dc, especially pre teen,without physical descriptions, it would be difficult for people to work out which sex they were.
Dc 1- loves gaming,making tiktoks, cats, reading, politics, wants to be a script writer , good at inference
Dc2- loves gaming, making tik toks, cats, not so fussed on reading, wants to work for nasa and be a judge, nailed times tables and loves maths.

On a statistical level, males present a risk to women. Anyone wanting to indulge in special pleading for a particular group of males needs to satisfactorily show why they are different and should be excluded from measures intended for women's safety, privacy and dignity.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

@jj1968

The only thing that is certain is that all males, no matter their gender identity, present an equal risk to women

This is certain is it? All those born male are of equal risk? Trans women assigned male at birth who only fancy women? Trans women without a penis? Gay males? 2 year old males? Males in a coma? Or is it true that some subsets of males are less of a risk and some are no risk at all? This is why it's a logical fallacy to assume something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole, even if it's the largest part. It is known as the fallacy of composition.

jj remind me again why my DH, who has never hurt anyone, has never displayed predatory behaviour and is generally a lovely bloke, is not welcome in women's spaces?

And then explain to me why he shouldn't be allowed in female spaces but a male who identifies as female (even if that male has committed sexual crimes according to the Labour Party), should be?

The thing is though, I am really not comfortable with my views.

Well, maybe worth looking deeper at why you are not comfortable with your views?

I do think that on the whole it's sometimes maybe a good thing not to be 'comfortable' with ones views. They aren't like a comfort blanket we hold onto to feel better - if we're using rigorous critical thinking, they are positions we've arrived at after thought, research and consideration. They don't define us.

We need to move away from identifying with our views, I would say. This is partly the cause of so much trouble at the moment - tribalism comes from over-identifying with ideologies or opinions or thoughts. And confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.

Views should be informed by observation, reason and evidence. If new evidence comes up, then we should be willing to change them.

For me, though, arriving at views that are more accurate is a bit like cold water or a blast of fresh air. Perhaps uncomfortable, yes, but ultimately a relief. When cognitive dissonance is abandoned, there is relief in not trying to maintain something that we know very clearly and simply just isn't true.

It's like having been 'going along' with 2+2 = 5 for a time, then finally shaking your head and saying, no. 2 + 2 = 4.

So maybe worth looking closer at the 'views'. The discomfort might come from fear of social opprobrium, or it might come from a conflict with our deeply held views. What is it about the views that you are not comfortable with? Is it because they threaten some part of your identity? Or because you feel they are wrong? If you think they are wrong, then reassess and change them. If you are more worried about what others think of you - well, it's up to you, but I personally try to make the decision to stand by my truth as much as possible, rather than what is easiest.

Slight derail here for information.
Stats from Rape Crisis.
rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/
Horrifying numbers and possibly just the 15% tip of the iceberg.
Yes, men get raped, assaulted too, but in terms of why women want single sex spaces maybe these numbers give some insight.
Both in terms of escape and also in terms of trauma. So so many women have been assaulted and raped, often by men they know and need subsequently to go about their daily lives as normally as possible without having to explain to a doctor, a hostel manager or a person that looks after the changing room at M&S that they find being around male bodies (however individually non threatening) traumatic.
I don't know any women, once you talk a little bit around this who have not been on the receiving end of unwelcome male attention. It starts young, my DD is 13 and has been shown porn on phones by boys in her class - she didn't want or ask to see it. Personally I have lost count of the number of times I've had comments made about me, groped in public places, I have been physically assaulted by a group of men and had situations where I did not consent. I'm an unremarkable middle aged woman. It's not about attractiveness, it's about power and entitlement. Too many men think they can just take what they want, do what they want - without fear of any consequences.

We know males present a risk to women significant enough to warrant single sex spaces. This is not a matter of opinion. There is no evidence to suggest a self-described subset of the category ‘male’ present any less risk to women (in fact the data we do have describes male pattern criminality). I would actually like to see statistics specifically on tw, because I have a feeling that tw under the current definition rather than traditional definition of TS will exhibit higher rates of criminality.

To be honest, when I first 'peaked' and became aware of what was going on ( in my case it was the 'Women do not have penises' stickers on the Anthony Gormley figures in Liverpool) it caused me to re-assess and look more critically at all of my ingrained allegiances.
The furore that surrounded the stickers shook me loose...and shocked me. Since then I've let go of my old certainties in the realm of political ideology, and find the whole left/right ding dong utterly tiresome. I now look at a variety of media and news sources, and read more widely or critically then i may have previously done.
I also have no-one obvious to vote for, and so now spoil my ballot.