Feeling really conflicted

[Tittie]

I've been lurking on the GC threads for quite some time, but don't feel articulate enough to contribute, compared to some of the brilliant posters here!

I peaked about 2 years ago. I remember confidently describing Mumsnet as transphobic to my friend not long before that I can't even remember what it was that changed my mind.

Anyway, there seems to be more and more coverage of trans/sex/gender issues in the media at the moment. It's making me incredibly uncomfortable that I find myself agreeing with newspapers, celebrities and politicians that I would ordinarily distance myself from (eg the Daily Mail). I am 100% gender critical, but I have this nagging doubt about who I am both agreeing and disagreeing with. Is anyone else feeling conflicted in this way?

@Sittingathome

I think 'gender fluid ' makes my eyes roll in the same way my inventing philosophy or sex at that age would have made my parents roll their eyes. People have been gender fluid for a long time- look at the glam rock movement in the 70s. I'd also take it more seriously if it didn't just mean swapping one stereotype for another. In that respect, it's a bit like the 'tribe' I was in as a teen, where we all wanted to dress differently, but just looked like crows with brightly coloured hair to to uninitiated.

the difference there was that there was still sex segregation and the protections that it gives. Now, it is about breaking down the integrity of single sex spaces.

Zoe was great for reigniting my class rage though.

It's not about "transphobia". I never even cared about transwomen in the toilet in RL. I was more concerned about them feeling scared.

What has done it for me is this shite. And then at that point I started analysing my own behaviour and thought "hang on, the women's toilets aren't just mine. Who was I allowing to be driven out when I made a performance of being fine with transwomen?"

basic risk assessment says transwomen have a good chance to be safe in the mens.

Have you carried out this basic risk assessment? Can we see it?

I just don't think some people see, or believe, what a lot of men are like around trans women. I have been sexually harassed countless times, sexually assaulted several times, once seriously and even back in the days I was just very gender nonconforming and looked very femme at times I was sexually harassed constantly in men's toilets. And these are straight men, or so they say, who would never publicly admit to an attraction to a trans person and I think this is what makes it invisible - there is a reason one of the most common messages trans women get on dating sites from straight men is R U Discreet? But the number of men using trans sex workers, watching trans porn and the number of trans women who reported sexually abusive behaviour from straight men tells a different story.

We're not lying about this. We're not asking for it, or being over sensitive, or making a fuss out of nothing. It happens to us too.

Not feeling the need to preface every statement in support of women with a disavowal of 'transphobia' is a good move, tbh.

How right you are. Why should we apologise for advocating for women? No more.

I don't feel conflicted at all. It's simplistic to think left = good, right = bad. I grew up in the evangelical church and although I left because I no longer felt in tune with them or their views I could also see that they did many good things in the community and further afield. And it's clear to me that some so-called progressive left-wing men are far more viciously misogynistic than the svil right wing blokes they love to denounce. And I despise virtue signalling with a passion.

In this issue, women have found common cause across the political spectrum. Personally I'm not a supporter of Scottish Independence but I support Joanna Cherry wholeheartedly. I can accept that we will agree on some things, but not on others. And that's just fine.

@334bu

*Not feeling the need to preface every statement in support of women with a disavowal of 'transphobia' is a good move, tbh*.

How right you are. Why should we apologise for advocating for women? No more.

Absolutely! It's a game changing thing to reiterate, without apology, that your priority is women and girls. All the appeals to get you to be mum to the sad faces are there to coerce you. You have no obligation to comply.

I know I'm going on about this, but I see it all the time, online and off, and grasping hold of how it works is genuinely huge. You can see it happening all over FWR, too. Liberating women has always started with consciousness-raising. If you stop accepting the conditioning you've had to soothe the sad noises, you begin to see that it's being used against you.

You would think having an understanding of what happens to women all the time would mean a push for third spaces or genuine discussion into safer spaces all round, and yet instead it leads to a push to enable any man into women’s spaces, all the way up to adding some very dangerous men into women’s prisons with some of the most vulnerable members of society.

There were certainly many in the left once who considered themselves perfectly decent progressive people who were opposed to lesbian and gay rights, often because it was something they couldn't empathise with, it made them a bit uncomfortable,

It occurs to me that you are comparing the sensibilities of people in the 80s, which many of us actually lived through and we grew up to find the situation that we face now. In the 80s, were you there? - people assimilated ideas, society moved forward and learnt lessons. Why are you suggesting that society has actually regressed by 40 years but with a new target group? It is such a false equivalence.

And who gives an actual fuck about Dentons anyway. This is exactly how conspiracy theorists work, take some report from some think tank that no-one ever probably even read and use it as proof of some grand plot behind the scenes.

We know that the Denton's strategy document was used very effectively in the Republic of Ireland to put Self-id in law with the minimum number of people being aware. Even today, many people in Ireland have no idea what happened but many women in ROI are feeling the effects of that legislation in real time to their major detriment.

My cousin was a trade union officer for decades and always maintained that the most misogynistic people were male trade unionists. You only have to think about their treatment of the Dagenham women to see how much they thought about women. In Glasgow it was also the Labour Party' s actions which meant that women carers didn't get equal pay until 2018.

@CranberriesChoccyAgain

It's interesting that your use of the word peak is still in your post, OP. I had a post removed this week for using that exact word in the same context. 🤷 I did look thru the guidelines but couldn't spot anything specific about that word.

WRT your dilemma, I agree. It feels like the world is topsy-turvy sometimes and what I once thought was liberal is now just idiotic, check-your-brain-at-the-door catchphrases.

It's really interesting you said that. With the madness of home schooling this year, I found that I hadn't been on MN for a few weeks. Coming back recently, it feels like loads of words/terms that were previously ok, suddenly aren't? It looks much easier to get posts deleted now, or am I imagining this?

know I'm going on about this, but I see it all the time, online and off, and grasping hold of how it works is genuinely huge. You can see it happening all over FWR, too. Liberating women has always started with consciousness-raising. If you stop accepting the conditioning you've had to soothe the sad noises, you begin to see that it's being used against you.

Absolutely.

It looks much easier to get posts deleted now, or am I imagining this?

No. You're not.

Bunting, I've changed the ways I phrase things a lot over the last few years. I used to make sure I was transinclusive and actually type things like "pregnant individuals" when arguing for maternity rights. No more.

jj1968

^I didn't equate gender critical activists with the far right, I just pointed out they are on the same side when it comes to trans people, that's why far right figures and conspiracy theorists have worked alongside GC activists^

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. WPUK started by left wing trade unionists. LGBAlliance started by left leaning lesbuans and gay men including a founder of Stonewall. All fought for repeal of S 28. Labour Womens Declaration - started by members of the Labour oarty. FairPlay for Women, started by an academic.

This is a tired, tired trope. It has no value because it is supported by no evidence but contradicted by the evidence if our oen eyrs.

We know that the Denton's strategy document was used very effectively in the Republic of Ireland to put Self-id in law with the minimum number of people being aware.

The Dentons report was published four years after self ID was introduced in Ireland.

If this is the case then why aren't you campaigning for a unisex cubicle to be provided alongside male/female single sex facilities. This is the obvious answer.

If men are beastly to other men who present differently to them, then this is a male problem to sort out. It isn't womens problem.

@PotholeParadies

Bunting, I've changed the ways I phrase things a lot over the last few years. I used to make sure I was transinclusive and actually type things like "pregnant individuals" when arguing for maternity rights. No more.

Aye. I actually do use neutral terms wherever possible, which is a pushback against 'default male' in language. But it's nonsense to do it to deliberately obscure women. And actually, the issue with default male is that it makes women invisible, so the most inclusive way to combat default male is to increase the use of both neutral terms and female-as-neutral in the way that male-as-neutral has been used for centuries.

It's good to use language with consideration. That's why I focus on women and girls, and do not couch that focus in appeasing terms that make men happy. I just don't give a crap about that sort of irrelevance.

Not really sure why anyone feels the need to dance to the tune of those posters who have repeatedly underlined they do not care about your rights. You know you're playing pigeon chess, right?

Given Ireland's traditional contempt for women's rights, they probably needed no outside help to totally disregard the needs of all women.

I just don't think some people see, or believe, what a lot of men are like around trans women. I have been sexually harassed countless times, sexually assaulted several times, once seriously

So you have some idea of what life is like for women. And yet you still don't understand why we say NO to men in our spaces.

I just don't think some people see, or believe, what a lot of men are like around trans women. I have been sexually harassed countless times, sexually assaulted several times, once seriously and even back in the days I was just very gender nonconforming and looked very femme at times I was sexually harassed constantly in men's toilets.

You are talking to women here. I can probably guarantee that not one single poster on this thread has not been sexually harassed and assaulted, some more seriously than others. I was lucky that my lifetime of harassment didn't start until I was 11 with my first flasher experience. So don't come on these boards and ask us to make ourselves more vulnerable to male violence just because the male sex can't sort it out for themselves.

Not really sure why anyone feels the need to dance to the tune of those posters who have repeatedly underlined they do not care about your rights. You know you're playing pigeon chess, right?

Yes, it's like a never ending game of it at the moment.

'In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.'
I’ve added my bold there, because I think those are very telling phrases indeed. This is an issue that is 'difficult to win public support for' and best hidden behind the 'veil of protection' provided by a popular issue such as gay rights. Again, anyone who has even glanced at the UK transgender debate will recognise this description.

From James Kirkup's excellent Spectator article about the Dentons document. It wasn't used to change the law in Ireland but it involves exactly the same tactics.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

I think @Sophoclesthefox has put it well: ‘Maybe you’re like I am and are struggling with feeling like you’re not being kind and supportive’ - I like to think that yes I am kind, and as a woman I’ve been socialised to be accommodating. So I suppose this causes internal conflict when I consider how some of the TRA lobbying is incompatible with women’s rights

I hoped that might resonate for you, titties. I find it helps with any lingering distress I feel about people telling me what a shit I am for my beliefs, that nobody who thinks as I do could be kind. I know they’re wrong, but I do still care.

I don’t want to throw out the baby of genuine compassion with the bath water of BE KIND. It’s been traduced horribly by people yelling at you to be kind (when they have no intention of returning the kindness), but feeling genuine compassion for a fellow human is still a great value to have. But people with a bit of life experience know that it’s not always a kindness to give in to unreasonable demands, and sometimes the most helpful word is “no”.

I wouldn’t compel anyone to frame it the same way, though, and I’m very much happy to also channel righteous anger too, because that gets shit done.

@BuntingEllacott

Not really sure why anyone feels the need to dance to the tune of those posters who have repeatedly underlined they do not care about your rights. You know you're playing pigeon chess, right?

Indeed! It’s a microcosm of the whole issue. Women’s energy bring sucked into ever more pointless whataboutery ‘discussions’ as if there is some magic response that will unlock empathy and understanding when there isn’t and never will be.